Next step in overriding female rights!

It's the truth 'the process is the punishment'. You have to have an evil side to want to persecute and harm another human in this way. The TRAs talk about the hate speech of 'misgendering', here we see hate and vengeance enacted..

ViceVersa

Yes, as I think I said earlier in thread, Sandie Peggie was damned if she did, damned if she didn't. From Dr Upton's evidence, he was offended when she spoke up about his use of the female changing room, then offended when she simply left the room. The whole saga just gets more and more ludicrous by the day, but make no mistake, the outcome of this is vital for the future rights of women and girls.

make no mistake, the outcome of this is vital for the future rights of women and girls.

Yes, it is but the fact it has been brought at all is extremely worrying.

I totally agree, Allira.

Can you imagine the stress this puts on someone.

Yes and it is a deliberate tactic to delay the hearing in the hope that the person involved will succumb to pressure and withdraw. This process has taken over a year to be heard, partly because Sandie Peggie insisted it was heard in public, which established that the doctor involved was by law a man, therefore could legally be referred to as 'he.' If it had been an internal tribunal goodness knows what would have happened. They were considering reporting her to the Police for a Hate crime.
What criminal nonsense to foist the aberrant fantasies of an arrogant man on a nurse simply doing her job and availing herself of the available facilities for women.

She's facing a disciplinary tribunal this Friday. This is for 'misgendering' a colleague. The ongoing tribunal has been brought by her against the hospital and Dr Upton and won't recommence until July. Surely they won't be daft enough to sack her on Friday?

Rosie51

Dickens from what I gathered following the Tribunal Tweets live reporting, there was no verbal exchange on those occasions. It offended and hurt him greatly that Sandie waited outside until he left the room.
The biggest mistake some women made was to accede to the use of wrong sex pronouns in order to be 'kind'. Given that inch some transwomen have opted to take the proverbial mile, time to row right back.

Rosie51

Thanks.

It offended and hurt him greatly that Sandie waited outside until he left the room.

It probably did - but isn't it her right to wait outside if she feels uncomfortable? Is that choice going to be removed from women now?

Upton believes there is no agreed definition of biological sex. When in fact, there is. The majority believe it's immutable, only a minority think it's something 'nebulous'.

It seems the majority are expected to discard science and biology in order to accommodate the internal feelings of a minority.

Since when did it become disrespectful to say, "I acknowledge your feelings, but I don't share them to the extent you want me to?"

You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right. Worse still, the transgender community blame women for the rise of 'anti' sentiment, instead of understanding they are making unreasonable demands on millions of biological women.

Women cannot force trans women to believe in the biological determination of sex - but neither can trans women force women to believe their gender-identity makes them women.

But, they are winning, aren't they with the help of organisations like the NHS Fife - unless there is more to this case than we are aware of?

... and why the delay until July?

I had to use the family changing room in the swimming pool last week. There was a man with his little girl. It did not bother me at all. However, I would feel very uncomfortable getting changed in front of a transgender man. I would leave. Say what you want about me, but that is how I feel!

Dickens the delay until July is a combination of available diary dates for all the participants and the fact that NHSFife and Upton did not disclose all the documents and evidence they had been instructed to by an earlier judge. Some was produced during the hearing, but it came to light there was a lot more that hadn't. Sandie's KC needs these documents to be able to analyse them, and that will take time. She has also requested a forensic analysis of Upton's phone as there were multiple discrepancies/gaps in his evidence. I have read that people think it unlikely this will be granted but who knows?

You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right.

I cannot see how the worse aspect of this ridiculous case is a gift to the conservative right.

These are quotes from Upton's evidence.....

Male and female bodies is a nebulous term that I do not recognise
Biological sex is a nebulous term that doesn't really mean anything
nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex
There is no agreed definition of biological sex
Biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle

It is being rumoured that the disciplinary tribunal on Friday is to be delayed. It was originally scheduled for one week after they expected Sandie's employment tribunal to be finished. They are determined to punish her for Upton's hurt feelings, whatever the results of that are as they'd know there wouldn't have been a judgement returned within a week. They really are the vilest, most vindictive bunch aren't they?

eazybee

^You know the worst aspect of this? It's a gift to the conservative Right.^

I cannot see how the worse aspect of this ridiculous case is a gift to the conservative right.

The far-right then - but the meaning of 'far-right' has been called into question on GN so I hesitated to use it.

... those who've declared a 'war-on-woke' and who include anyone who's even slightly left-leaning in that category, along with the transgender community, 'progressives', feminists, you-name-it - they use it as political ammunition to stoke division.

All the feminists i know view woke as code for misogyny, authoritarianism, etc. I am afraid the culture war started by people trying to get others to pretend sex isnt a reality.

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

I would not like to be treated by a doctor who doesn't recognise the difference between men and women. . I am used to being treated by men or women.

Is it any wonder that more women don't complain in these sorts of circumstances, which is used as an argument that 'nobody else cares'? I admire Sandie Peggie's immense courage and fortitude, but I honestly don't think I could bear the pressure she's under.

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

... so what do you suggest for those who are at the extreme ends of either right or left, because they do exist?

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

This is why language is so important. When people start misusing it, it becomes increasingly difficult to have a meaningful conversation. This is why what used to be simple words such as 'men', 'women', 'he' and 'she', 'him' and 'her', or 'mother' are so hotly contested. TRAs want to control the debate, and shifting the meanings to words lets them do it.

I have long said on here that many people use 'right' and 'left' in rather strange ways. Both 'sides' tend to use the one they aren't on as an insult, but miss the point that there is a lot more to it than simple voting intention.

I knew exactly what Dickens meant though. Idiotic cases like this are a gift to the sort of people who don't like not being 'allowed' to use racial slurs, who refer to calls to murder people in asylum hostels as 'hurty words', who organise riots, and throw bricks at riot police who defend those hostels or the property of people with brown faces. Those people are far-right, aren't they? They are not the same as decent people who happen to vote Conservative.

eazybee

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense, as is the term 'far-right,' Better not to use it at all, I would think.

PS

The term 'Right' is being used increasingly in a pejorative sense,

But not by me.

I actually think left and right are becoming meaningless, the progressives ( the woke for want of a better word) hold none of the values that I recognise as 'left'. They either ignore class totally or often favour the middle class over the working class.

I would use the term 'extreme' if it were applicable, as in Dr Upton holds extreme views about sex as opposed to gender.
I don't like people being labelled right, left, centrist or far anything; most people hold a wide range of views about different things.
And never 'the working class'! Haven't you noticed?
It is 'working people' now.

Thank you Doodledog.

Yes, I've heard the Right (and Left) spoken of pejoratively, but being somewhat 'centrist', I don't feel totally alienated from either so when I use the terminology, I am not denigrating either side of the political divide.

Perhaps we should use the word "extremist" - but then of course someone will question what I mean by extremism - "do you mean those whose views you don't agree with" kind of thing!

Like others on GN, I have friends who are Tory voters and others who aren't, and we debate and argue but I value their opinions as much as I value my own. Anyway, there's things on which we all agree, so...

Just wanted to make that clear.

Galaxy

I actually think left and right are becoming meaningless, the progressives ( the woke for want of a better word) hold none of the values that I recognise as 'left'. They either ignore class totally or often favour the middle class over the working class.

Yup

Rosie51

Thanks for that information on the delay. It explains it.

Upton's quotes are something else aren't they!

nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex

Well I think they can and have. Of course, it may not be a 'useful' definition to a man who insists that because he identifies as a woman, he is one.

But, there's more to this case isn't there? Upton has alleged that Peggie refused to help treat a patient in resus due to her presence in the room.

A rather serious allegation that one would assume should have been reported immediately - but, the incident was not reported until after the row on Christmas Eve. The incident apparently took place in October.

Which begs the obvious question...

Which begs the obvious question...

Sure does, especially as he can't pin down the date, patient involved or anyone else who can corroborate this story. Funny that eh?

eazybee

I would use the term 'extreme' if it were applicable, as in Dr Upton holds extreme views about sex as opposed to gender.
I don't like people being labelled right, left, centrist or far anything; most people hold a wide range of views about different things.
And never 'the working class'! Haven't you noticed?
It is 'working people' now.

Extreme ideological views (extremism) are characterised by a refusal to acknowledge the existence or validity of opposing perspectives.

Extremist behaviour employs violence to achieve ideological objectives. This includes acts of terrorism, politically motivated violence, and communal violence. However, it evolves from range of lesser but still extreme behaviours, from verbal abuse and the denial of opportunities for rational discourse to physical assault. The ultimate extreme is the violent undermining of democratic principles and democracy itself.