Trump Pauses Aid To Ukraine

No-one wants war except for some warmongering leaders who want to take over others' land.

Aggression and defence are different.

The press is reporting Vance said “if you want real security guarantees, to ensure Putin does not invade Ukraine again, the very best security guarantee is Americans economic upside in the future of Ukraine. That is a way better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn’t fought a war in 30 or 40 years”

Downing Street slapped down the VPs comments “the PM and this country are full of admiration for UK troops who served in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan alongside the US and other allies (daily Mail )

Vance is now saying he didn’t mean UK or France

ronib

European countries are not in a position to protect Ukraine as they have depleted their own defence infrastructure. America does not have to agree to support the Ukrainian war indefinitely and with no end plan. Arguably having given 3 years support, it is now asking for resolution and that is not unreasonable.

Arguably having given 3 years support, it is now asking for resolution and that is not unreasonable.

Maybe not - but the way they have gone about it IS.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMI6tc05Jzk

General Sir Richard Sherreff, former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander in Europe.

I hope most if you can listen. The clip at the beginning comes from about seven minutes in, but the whole is worth listening to.

... for a start, the meeting could have been held in private.

But wasn't. And we can only, and probably correctly, conclude why.

Yes: NATO was also involved in Afghanistan.
"NATO assumed control of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan in 2003, with the primary objective of enabling the Afghan government to provide security and develop new Afghan security forces".

Vance fuelling more division.

Vance and Trump seem to get worse by the day. New world order indeed

Cossy

nanna8

Why do so many of you want the war to continue? I don’t understand that. People die. Ukrainians and Russians and others from outside countries fighting on their behalf. The war needs to stop. Now.

I honestly don’t think it’s a case of anyone (on Gransnet) wanting this war or any other war to continue, it’s about doing what is right for lasting peace.

Ukraine just signing over their country to Putin and rare earth minerals to Trump is any kind of deal for Ukraine nor guarantee of last peace.

There are no or so little RE minerals in Ukraine that it isn't viable to mine.
So far of the 4 experts in this field I have read, not one suggests there is a prospect of this being true.
Think Afganestan, wasn't the world going to be awash with REM gold silver everything going?

The only peace is stopping bombing the enemy.
Then negotiations diplomacy compromise, from both sides.

ronib

How do you expect a granny in England to know what the peace options are ???

Of course we are all under educated knitting nanas with no experience of the world, politics, the law or anything.
What a totally outrageous and ill informed comment!

I was referring to myself as I had been asked the question.
Okay let’s hear it then RosieandherMaw once you have got over your outrage at me. What are the peace options?

RosieandherMaw

ronib

How do you expect a granny in England to know what the peace options are ???

Of course we are all under educated knitting nanas with no experience of the world, politics, the law or anything.
What a totally outrageous and ill informed comment!

Grannies are not a special class of ignoramuses who know of nothing besides how to spoil their grandchildren

On Gransnet there are posters who have held responsible jobs in law, medicine, international relations, the armed forces, the civil service (including departments dealing with key government departments) university departments of economics, modern history, social sciences, psychology and psychiatry, and the education and mental development of all ages from infancy to old age and death. If I have missed anyone out, I apologise.

The collective knowledge and experience in Gransnet is phenomenal. In some cultures it would be revered as the repository of wisdom, not dismissed as irrelevant.

PoliticsNerd

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMI6tc05Jzk

General Sir Richard Sherreff, former NATO Deputy Supreme Allied Commander in Europe.

I hope most if you can listen. The clip at the beginning comes from about seven minutes in, but the whole is worth listening to.

PoliticsNerd I am very curious to hear a former NATO general talk on this subject. It has long been a niggle in our household that somehow NATO has probably unwittingly contributed to the collapse in good relations between the West and Russia. This general is very imbued in NATO and I worry that this is group think if you like. I shall listen again.

Elegran so again, what are the peace options?

Reading through your posts Ronib you seem to have a pretty clear idea -

"Putin's won" "Ukraine's lost - get over it".

Others aren't claiming to know the peace options but want to keep sitting at that table and working things out without suppositions like that.

I can't engage with the tit for tat type arguing instead of substance so wil stick to the latter.

We’re still waiting for you to tell us ronib. You’re the one who doesn’t trust the politicians to reach a solution, but who offers absolutely no options or alternatives - or evidence to support your view. All it seems to come down to is that you want fighting to stop, and you don’t care how, so let’s capitulate.

But I do care how this ends. I am aware that there are various possibilities but the solutions are best discussed with the key stakeholders in the dispute. I don’t believe that we can impose any of our ideas on either Russia or Ukraine but instead perhaps beg them to put their weapons down and begin to talk.

Those posters who say just stop fighting don’t have any sort of suggestions for achieving peace do they?

ronib

But I do care how this ends. I am aware that there are various possibilities but the solutions are best discussed with the key stakeholders in the dispute. I don’t believe that we can impose any of our ideas on either Russia or Ukraine but instead perhaps beg them to put their weapons down and begin to talk.

You really think that Putin will do that!

Because we beg him?

Lathyrus3

Those posters who say just stop fighting don’t have any sort of suggestions for achieving peace do they?

Read my posts.

Has anyone tried? Don’t forget that Ukraine and Russia have a common history and in essence it does feel like a civil war. Lathyrus3

ronib

Has anyone tried? Don’t forget that Ukraine and Russia have a common history and in essence it does feel like a civil war. Lathyrus3

A common history? Well sort of I suppose, in that it mostly consists of Russia seizing control of the area and assorted conflicts by a number of other countries to oppose them.

I don’t get your point. Other than let history repeat itself.

Iam64

The press is reporting Vance said “if you want real security guarantees, to ensure Putin does not invade Ukraine again, the very best security guarantee is Americans economic upside in the future of Ukraine. That is a way better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn’t fought a war in 30 or 40 years”

Downing Street slapped down the VPs comments “the PM and this country are full of admiration for UK troops who served in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan alongside the US and other allies (daily Mail )

Vance is now saying he didn’t mean UK or France

An insult to the UK and our armed forces. Vance is getting too big for his boots. He has been called an attack dog and the description fits him perfectly.

Namsnanny

Lathyrus3

Those posters who say just stop fighting don’t have any sort of suggestions for achieving peace do they?

Read my posts.

Ok.
Negotiations from both sides.

Any ideas on that?

Do you want me to write what each side should say/do?
What is the point of your perspective?
Could you explain what it is about my posts you do not agree with?

I think it would be an improvement if Ukraine and Russia engaged directly with each other as the main protagonists without the burden of self interested other players.