Trans women and single-sex spaces

Isn't it ridiculous that a Supreme Court judgement is needed to define what a woman is!!!

Dr Beth Upton doesnt have a GRC and argued legally from that position. Dr Upton would not have had any grounds to do what she did nor argue it in court. It would have been a non starter.

There's a whole number of example that have been given on these threads that would have fallen into a similar category.

I agree it's not a solve all ruling, but I'm not sure what would be certainly as long as facilities don't allow of "third solutions".

As Easybee pointed out, Dr Upton was a thoroughly nasty character. A threat not just to women, but also a threat to the transpeople that Cabbie knows.

Threatening and offensive behaviour isn't exclusive to transpeople however.
We have a public order act as regards threatening or abusive behaviour. Perhaps this should be clarified as of relevance.

Smileless2012

Isn't it ridiculous that a Supreme Court judgement is needed to define what a woman is!!!

I dont find it surprising, since it is such a complex social question and practically speaking decisions have to be made day by day in various situations on the basis of law.

Politics Nerd I can't understand what you are saying in the rest of your post

I am saying perfectly clearly that intentions proven or otherwise are semantics and irrelevant within the context of the safety and reasonable comfort of women. Whatever Rose's intentions were their behaviour was seriously uncomfortable and inappropriate in the context of a womens changing room. Rose has not denied those actions so proven is irrelevant. Intentions ...do not automatically override other people's comfort and sense of safety.

But the definition of a woman isn't a complex social question Wyllow it's a biological fact.

So agree, Smileless.

This is why this ridiculous situation has arisen eaybee. Gender has become a complex social question and because gender has been conflated with biological sex we're in the mess we're in.

If only common sense had prevailed.

Smileless2012

But the definition of a woman isn't a complex social question Wyllow it's a biological fact.

The biological fact. Unfortunately, there are those learned bods who disagree that it is a biological fact.

And that is really what we are up against.

You cannot change your chromosomes in a way that will alter your genetic make up.

There has to be a recognition that biological sex and gender identity are two separate things. Otherwise, we are doomed.

Sadly, common sense seems to be a commodity which is becoming rarer by the day now.

Let's hope and pray that that's what this upcoming Supreme Court judgement does Dickens and puts this nonsense to bed once and for all.

I agree ViceVersa.

Madgran77

*Politics Nerd* I can't understand what you are saying in the rest of your post

I am saying perfectly clearly that intentions proven or otherwise are semantics and irrelevant within the context of the safety and reasonable comfort of women. Whatever Rose's intentions were their behaviour was seriously uncomfortable and inappropriate in the context of a womens changing room. Rose has not denied those actions so proven is irrelevant. Intentions ...do not automatically override other people's comfort and sense of safety.

So Madgran77, your opinion is that when it comes to the safety and comfort of women, the intentions behind someone's actions are not important. You seem to be arguing that regardless of what a person means to convey, their behaviour should be condemned as inappropriate. So perception trumps intention. You also seem to believe that not disputeding actions makes proof of those actions unnecessary.

Have I got this right so far?

To be fair I think the nonsense is gradually being put to bed, we have come a long way, mainly due to the bravery of a few women, it is always a mistake to underestimate middle aged women

For the safety and comfort of women biological males should not impose themselves, with or without testicles and a penis, in areas where it is expected that people will be in a state of undress on a scale all the way to full nudity. Nor should these same males compete in the female class in sports. Intentions are irrelevant when fear, alarm, comfort or fairness are compromised for women.

Nuala McGovern interviewed Julie Bindel about her latest book on women’s hour today. Bindel argued in support of lesbian women keeping that identity rather than gay/non binary etc. she pointed out lesbian identifies female, whereas gay in her view, includes men who tend to get more attention than women.
They also discussed single sex spaces, her views on that remain like most 70’s feminists, ie men should not be allowed
Nuala McGovern persistently put the alternative argument. She pointed out more than once that “some people will find your opinion offensive”.
Go Julie Bindel. Stand your ground. My view was the challenge mirrored the anti terf line rather than simply seeking balance

Galaxy

To be fair I think the nonsense is gradually being put to bed, we have come a long way, mainly due to the bravery of a few women, it is always a mistake to underestimate middle aged women

We need the slogan in our t shirts - except I think I’m officially elderly

Ha Julie Bindel won't flinch if she is called offensive. Another word that no longer has any power. I need to order her book actually.

I think they did underestimate the older feminists Iam64, they sort of forgot that women have their own resources ( so can campaign and fundraise) are in positions of power, (politicians, lawyers, etc) and are used to organising. I think it came as a bit of a surprise. Oh and we had Mumsnet which was such a resource in the early days.

Go Julie Bindel.
Lesbian means you retain your sexual identity. Lesbians are female, despite what some TIM/TW want to claim.
Being lesbian doesn’t involve biological lies.
Homosexual, applies likewise to males.

All the other ^identities which are flooding out of people’s desire for attention involve lying to a greater or lesser extent.
Strange how this lying is acceptable to some people.

Smileless2012

This is why this ridiculous situation has arisen eaybee. Gender has become a complex social question and because gender has been conflated with biological sex we're in the mess we're in.

If only common sense had prevailed.

Ah, I see what you mean smileless. (as regards your query to me above re "complex")

Gender cant be conflated with biological sex, ever, and I agree I hope the court makes this clear.

The complexity I alluded to is around the practical issues surrounding gender recognition - which clearly need better guidelines and legal intervention.

I agree Wyllow that better guidelines and legal intervention re practical issues about gender recognition are needed; I still find it hard to believe that we've come to this.

Well done Julie Bindel and there will be far more who don't find her opinion offensive than those who do.

Smiless2012...Indeed it is ridiculous that the Supreme Court has to rule what the definition of a women is...in fact it's not difficult to define at all seeing as we all came out of one.

Smileless2012

I agree Galaxy. Any space for women shouldn't be entered into by any intact men regardless of whether or not they have a GRC.

Totally agree

Not worth the paper it's written on and don't get me started on the 2 MEN who are both finalists in the WOMEN'S pool (snooker, not water) competition because they suddenly identify as women. Thereby taking away the chances of women to win their own competition.

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Mollygo

Go Julie Bindel.
Lesbian means you retain your sexual identity. Lesbians are female, despite what some TIM/TW want to claim.
Being lesbian doesn’t involve biological lies.
Homosexual, applies likewise to males.

All the other ^identities which are flooding out of people’s desire for attention involve lying to a greater or lesser extent.
Strange how this lying is acceptable to ^some people.^

All coming from the mistaken desire not to offend isn’t it?
Get a grip I feel like yelling at them.

I wish the word "gender" could be erased as it has caused many problems when related to sex. Apart from a small minority most people are either male or female.
Changing gender so some seems to mean changing sex which is impossible.