Trans women and single-sex spaces

it's not an issue bad typo, sorry

Tickle v giggle is enlightening reading with regard to the situation in Australia. They have so far done exactly the opposite of the supreme Court judgement. There are some brave women fighting for womens rights in Australia.

Lathyrus3

I say nope too.

Nope to men in women’s spaces.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

And now the law says I can.

Succinctly put. 👏👏👏

That’s a nope from me too.

Galaxy

So radio 4 this morning the government has welcomed the supreme courts judgement, single sex spaces are by biological space and they will work with the EHRC to produce the statutory guidance necessary. Presumably the labour government are now hateful and far right.

I welcome this.

Also from Sky News just now

"Rare consensus on 'completely unacceptable' scenes at trans rights protest that damaged statues
Labour and the Conservatives have both condemned protestors that damaged statues and waved offensive placards on the weekend as "completely unacceptable".

"Stephen Morgan condemned the protestors this morning on Sky News.
The education minister said he hoped there would be “police action” over “unacceptable” language used at the trans rights protest in London.
Morgan said: “It’s completely unacceptable language to be used, and obviously any matters that break the law should be reported to the police, and hopefully police action is taken.”

"The Metropolitan Police has confirmed it is investigating and has officers trawling back through CCTV footage.
No arrests were made at the time, with the protest largely peaceful.

I also expect that the Guildelines will have to consider such matters as the status and meaning of the GRA for transpeople.

The day after the Supreme Court ruling, Kishwer Falkner, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), described yesterday’s supreme court ruling as “a victory for common sense, but only if you recognise that trans people exist.
They have rights, and their rights must be respected – then it becomes a victory for common sense. It’s not a victory for an increase in unpleasant actions against trans people. We will not tolerate that.”

I think we will probably forgive the politicians, organisations, who furthered this sexist nonsense, but we won't forget. Although of course I can't speak for the women who were at the hard edge of it all.
We always knew that a lot of the work would be done by the activist themselves we just had to keep shining a light on the threats etc.

And now we have images of masked people carrying placards about trans rights, guarding the entrance to female toilets.
They aren’t actually hitting anybody, so no doubt some will praise it as peaceful but is it OK that trans and tra think it’s OK to intimidate women.

That kind of language right to exist is part of why we are where we are. It is meaningless, of course people know trams people exist, we don't believe what they believe, that has no impact on their existence.

It’s not a victory for an increase in unpleasant actions against trans people. We will not tolerate that.
But will they tolerate the increase in unpleasant actions against women?

Except now I think about it maybe it does threaten their existence, I was thinking about this the other day. They have been told over and over TWAW and now reality tells them they are not. This was always going to happen. Promoting this lie has been one of the cruelest things I have seen, because it was never going to hold. They need to be angry at the people who told them this lie.

Mollygo

And now we have images of masked people carrying placards about trans rights, guarding the entrance to female toilets.
They aren’t actually hitting anybody, so no doubt some will praise it as peaceful but is it OK that trans and tra think it’s OK to intimidate women.

They're going to have to make some decisions on that as it's unacceptable. Breach of the Peace law?

Galaxy

Except now I think about it maybe it does threaten their existence, I was thinking about this the other day. They have been told over and over TWAW and now reality tells them they are not. This was always going to happen. Promoting this lie has been one of the cruelest things I have seen, because it was never going to hold. They need to be angry at the people who told them this lie.

I think it's reasonable to ask for guidance as regards what are their rights as part of the Guidelines. For example, the GRA and rights as regards civil partnerships and marriage, and clear reassurance there will be facilities as needed.

Breach of the Peace law?

We have Starmer's new National Violent Disorder programme already in place. But will it be used? Nah.

I am not sure what you mean about marriages?

44Galaxy

"Tickle v giggle is enlightening reading with regard to the situation in Australia. They have so far done exactly the opposite of the supreme Court judgement. There are some brave women fighting for womens rights in Australia."
It sounds like it is an issue in Australia then, contrary to what Nanna8 believes? I suppose if you look only at where you live, you might not see a problem. There isn't a big problem in my small village but more of an issue in the wider community

I'm unsure, Galaxy, tbh, its a question rather than a statement of what I know for sure - If you have a GRC and your birth certificate is in your chosen name and pronouns as "she" how will this affect civil and marriage proceedings as well as everyday life pronouns can they still proceed as before.

Is it an age thing? I cannot believe that so many young people are trans.
I personally know 5 and know-of many more. One friend's DGC is non binary so does that mean they are not yet decided?
Please excuse my ignorance. I am quite old.

I have no objection to anyone's sexual orientation until I suppose it
infringes my own rights.

I did get annoyed when sharing a dormitory and bathroom, a couple of years ago, with a transgender woman who spent half an hour in the bathroom getting dressed, shaved and madeup while some of us had our legs crossed desperate for the loo!

Carlotta

^Breach of the Peace law?^

We have Starmer's new National Violent Disorder programme already in place. But will it be used? Nah.

I was answering Molly's specific point about peaceful placards outside womens toilets.

People can call themselves what they like, it just has no impact on single sex places. Women can marry women, men can marry men, and women can marry men, so it has no impact on people's right to get married. There is a complex debate around the spousal veto and the issuing of a GRC, the transwidows organisations have done a fair bit of work explaining it and I still find it complex.

Wyllow3

I'm unsure, Galaxy, tbh, its a question rather than a statement of what I know for sure - If you have a GRC and your birth certificate is in your chosen name and pronouns as "she" how will this affect civil and marriage proceedings as well as everyday life pronouns can they still proceed as before.

I don’t think the ruling will make any difference in practice.

Same sex marriages/civil partnerships are an everyday part of our society so what difference will the ruling make to getting married?

Grandma Batty:

"influx of aggressive males"

Attacking or abusing is illegal in changing rooms and toilets as elsewhere. While professional policing in every changing room is not possible, it's possible to supervise toilets and changing rooms with surveillance camera.

During past times mens' and ladies' toilets and changing rooms were staffed by an elderly person who cleaned the toilet seat, fetched a safety pin and so on, and oversaw general behaviour, but I suppose only the most expensive establishments employ such people now.

If anti-abortionists aren't permitted to peacefully hold placards and silently pray within a certain distance of clinics then surely the same 'exclusion zone' policy could be applied to toilets?

Yes Rosie, my thoughts entirely c.exclusion zone.
And spousal veto?, transwidows' organisations? and the use of pronouns in the marriage service?

What a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive.

My thoughts too Rosie, it makes sense to have an exclusion zone around any space reserved for biological women and to ensure that any protest is peaceful and non threatening.

We talked yesterday about last week's ruling with DS who lives in Perth and he said it's got out of hand in Aus. with trans rights superseding those of biological women.

What a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive this sums it up perfectly eazybee.

I wonder if it is about to end the career of Maggie Chapman, we should keep some sort of record of the politicians and organisations that it has destroyed.