Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

Doodledog

I think we all know the answer to that. It's because men can be dangerous, which is why women fought to have spaces of our own where they aren't allowed.

I genuinely do understand why transwomen may not want to use male loos, but something has to give. Either they (as males) need to be as forceful as some were about entering female spaces and front out being in male spaces as putative females, or they impose themselves on women.

Women have said no, and finally been listened to, so there is only the other route available. They tell men that whether they like it or not transwomen will share their spaces. Women were expected to deal with this, as the 'weaker; sex - why can't men deal with it now?

Well you won’t know that a trans woman is next to you in the women’s toilet anyways . They will continue to do so . Like it or not .

Yeah as I say we are going to have to keep going with the legal action, because women saying no is rarely tolerated unless enforced via the law. A few organisations have already confirmed that they will comply with the law.

Doodledog

So it’s males who are the danger? Can’t you see that this is exactly why many women want single-sex spaces?

QED

Transwomen have been around for a long time and have been using the female toilets mostly with no problems.
TransAction and other groups have caused problems for women and transwomen by insisting that they are women and have a right to be in female safe spaces.
Transwomen who have never caused problems for women are now worried about the reactions after the court case

As I expected the TRAs will continue to behave like aggressive men and cause more trouble. They won't go quietly.

Do I REALLY need to explain this ??!!!
Would you feel safe as a woman going into a male toilet?

oh the irony! So a "woman" wouldn't be safe going into a male toilet or changing room because the menz in there are potentially violent, aggressive abusers? but maybe they're not because you never can tell just by appearances apparently Does it occur to you that that's exactly why women don't want men in our toilets and changing rooms either? Here's a thought.... instead of demanding that women budge up, make space and be kind to men presenting as women, how about you approach the male estate and tell them to stop being so unkind, threatening and aggressive to their own biological people and make them feel welcome? Why are you expecting women to do the grunt work for them? The problem isn't for women to resolve; we've fought for our space; time for men to buckle up and do the same.

Doodledog

So it’s males who are the danger? Can’t you see that this is exactly why many women want single-sex spaces?

QED indeed!

As Syracute itself says
Would you feel safe as a woman going into a male toilet ?

But from a TW or TW supporter’s viewpoint, women don’t need to fear men if they’re
pretending to be,
living like,
looking like,
feeling like,
dressing like,
what they think a woman does or is . . .
Which has been proven wrong, to the detriment of any TW who are not ill-intentioned, as well as to those who legally are women.

Yes, Syracute, I would like an explanation of a mindset that thinks it's unacceptable for a person presenting as female to be exposed to the danger certain penis intact persons present but its perfectly ok for women and girls to be exposed to that same danger by penis intact persons using the protection of the law, as was, to carry out their vile agendas.

AGAA4

Transwomen have been around for a long time and have been using the female toilets mostly with no problems.
TransAction and other groups have caused problems for women and transwomen by insisting that they are women and have a right to be in female safe spaces.
Transwomen who have never caused problems for women are now worried about the reactions after the court case

As I expected the TRAs will continue to behave like aggressive men and cause more trouble. They won't go quietly.

I agree with this, as some have pointed out many times, trans women were using women's public toilets for example and that went under the radar, because most women weren't aware. And why was that? because no doubt those people were very circumspect in doing so, were almost certainly not threatening and didn't want to cause ructions or alarm to the women who would have been alongside them. I don't recall any or much mention or discussion around trans women invading women only spaces. Perhaps if things had continued along those lines it wouldn't have become such a big deal. Somewhere along the line, early noughties or to be specific from Julie Bindel's testament 2004, there was a parting of the ways between the non aggressive type of trans women and the new militants who were hell bent on confrontation that have brought us to where we are today.

Yes exactly, TerriBull!

Well you won’t know that a trans woman is next to you in the women’s toilet anyways . They will continue to do so . Like it or not .

How many times do I have to say it? If there is an undetectable TW in the next cubicle, and they come in, wee and leave there is no problem. The problem is when an aggressive man is able to go in there simply because he says he is female. If the law allows one, it has to allow the other, as we can't have a system where someone decides if it's ok for men to use our spaces based on appearance. Personally (and others will have different points of view) I would ignore the former and report the latter. I don't pay much attention to who is in the next cubicle anyway.

It is also true that allowing men into women's spaces makes it far more difficult to know if anything untoward is happening. A friend of mine was assaulted in the Ladies of a bar we were in as students. The assailant didn't manage to rape her because he had been spotted going into the loos, which were separate from the bar area, and the alarm was raised. Back then men respected women's spaces, but now (or until the ruling, anyway) people have been scared to challenge them for fear of being called transphobic (and all the other insults in the playbook). This man wasn't pretending to be a woman, but it has been perfectly possible for men who are obviously male to just say they are women and access all areas.

There is a huge difference between the two situations, but laws don't operate on a spectrum - things have to be legal or not. As a result, all males in female spaces are there illegally, but in the vast majority of cases it is unlikely that anyone would challenge someone who is just using the loo.

We should not have allowed any men in women's spaces, however lovely they are, it was a mistake, and has taken years of work to row back from.

The 'Be Kind' mantra has a lot to answer for. It was clever work - most women want to be kind, so it tapped into the way we are socialised and we accepted it.

Yes,

There was a report today of a young American high school student who took part in track events, addressing a meeting where she spoke of her distress about having to undress in front of a trans person, who being fully clothed didn't really need to be in the locker room with her, she found the experience traumatising. Imagine being that age and in that position, how would any of us felt? imagine your daughter/granddaughter being intimidated in such a scenario, how would we feel for them? For her efforts of tearfully explaining all of that and explaining "our privacy as females was being violated" she was told by the female school board president, "please wrap it up" I'm amazed that an older woman couldn't empathise with a young teenage girl being put in that position. Maybe she should have asked herself whether she'd like to get undressed in front of some random man she didn't know. It's such attitudes that I find shocking.

Yes, luckily some of us are difficult, disagreeable women and it didn't quite work

Galaxy

Yes, luckily some of us are difficult, disagreeable women and it didn't quite work

😁😁

The 'Be Kind' mantra has a lot to answer for. It was clever work - most women want to be kind, so it tapped into the way we are socialised and we accepted it.

Well now would be the perfect time for the trans communities to start lobbying men wouldn't it? Demand that they make space for them. Demand that they allow them to use the appropriately sex defined spaces without having to fear aggression, violence or abuse. But most of all; demand that men BE KIND, supportive and compliant. It worked perfectly on women. Until now.

Exactly Carlotta it's been a bit of a mystery as to why Trans activists haven't used their considerable energies & loud demands calling for mens' kindness and compliance. Too tough a proposition maybe?

Well being accepted by men wouldn't give them power over women, would it?

For the TRAs (as opposed to the 'quiet' TW) that is what underpins the movement.

Spot on as always Doodledog

The problem stems as I see it from The Equality Act of 2010, where it states that a person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if that person is proposing to go/is undergoing/has undergone a process of gender reassignment

There is a legal presumption in favour of someone who identifies as a female being treated as a female.
This may apply only to Scotland; I am not sure.
I am quoting Wikipedia so I cannot claim it is completely accurate, but it would seem that many organisations took this as a guideline when drawing up policies concerning trans rights to single sex spaces. The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland was halted because managers claimed to have allowed men into single sex spaces due to policies, which were subsequently found not to exist; they simply had a belief it was so.
I sincerely hope this is what the Supreme Court judgement will clarify, and remove all the ambiguous interpretations . forthwith.
Gender Recognition Certificates should not be deemed to have legal force since it is stated men and women cannot change their sex.

TRAs have shot themselves in the foot with their abysmal behaviour. Sadly non- confrontational transwomen are affected too.

AGAA4

TRAs have shot themselves in the foot with their abysmal behaviour. Sadly non- confrontational transwomen are affected too.

Keep saying it AGAA4.

I and others, have said exactly that for ages.

Clearly, that truth has no impact on those who caused the problems and are planning to continue causing the problems, whilst refusing to acknowledge that their actions impact on trans as well as women

eazybee

The problem stems as I see it from The Equality Act of 2010, where it states that a person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if that person is proposing to go/is undergoing/has undergone a process of gender reassignment

There is a legal presumption in favour of someone who identifies as a female being treated as a female.
This may apply only to Scotland; I am not sure.
I am quoting Wikipedia so I cannot claim it is completely accurate, but it would seem that many organisations took this as a guideline when drawing up policies concerning trans rights to single sex spaces. The Sandie Peggie case in Scotland was halted because managers claimed to have allowed men into single sex spaces due to policies, which were subsequently found not to exist; they simply had a belief it was so.
I sincerely hope this is what the Supreme Court judgement will clarify, and remove all the ambiguous interpretations . forthwith.
Gender Recognition Certificates should not be deemed to have legal force since it is stated men and women cannot change their sex.

The Scottish government interpreted the Equality Act and "woman" to suit it's gender agenda, it was their interpretation that was supported by the Scottish courts but overturned by the UK Supreme Court. On the basis of their interpretation they encouraged NHS Scotland to allow trans women to use female only places. Dr Upton had identified as female and was using the female charging rooms, Sandie Peggie objected to this, was suspended and is still facing a tribunal. Meantime Dr Upton reported her for having refused to help him with a patient, 8 months prior to his accusations. He says it was not a vindictive move. Sandie Peggie has worked for NHS fife for 30 years.
Scotgov initially denied they had directed public institutions to allow trans women into women only spaces, but then I turned and admitted this was their policy.
We await the outcome re Sandie Peggie, there has always been enormous support for her, and every minute now that she is not reinstated, with an apology, with compensation, reflects negatively on NHS Fife and the Scottish Government. They may insist on waiting for the equality commission clarification expected in the summer, but they don't have a moral leg to stand on.

*I - it, they