Is there an argument for saying that UK citizens who support Trump are unpatriotic?

I have a family member who approves of Trump.
He admires Trump's 'patriotism' and 'desire to put his country first'.

He feels we have lost that in Britain and so his support of Trump (totally misguided in my opinion) is coming from a place of patriotism.

He isn't unpatriotic - he is more 'patriotic' than me.

The notion of patriotism in the country has changed. To my mind it is now often used to justify behaviour and views that many, including me, find out of step with traditional British values of mutual respect, and tolerance.

If, as I explained, discussion doesn't ask for your "yes" or "no" opinion, then what is looked for is the supporting evidence. When people debate they should be able to put both sides of an argument so that the weight of those arguments can be judged. Avalon has summed it up with "You can support Trump and be patriotic and vice versa.", i.e., you can put arguments forward for either.

How about we define "patriotism" first? I am going to put forward a meaning which some people may use. It doesn't have to be mine and your description doesn't have to be yours; they are there to create discussion.

So, first attempt: Patriotism: a sense of belonging, a feeling of love and pride, a willingness to fight for your country's freedom.

How would you define it?

I've just seen the post by Churchview.

We could add the definition:

Patriotism: often used to justify behaviour and views that are out of step with traditional British values of mutual respect, and tolerance.

I hope that acceptable Churchview and sorry if I've missed others. Please repeat them beginning with "Patriotism:". If people are still interested we can list them.

PoliticsNerd

I've just seen the post by Churchview.

We could add the definition:

Patriotism: often used to justify behaviour and views that are out of step with traditional British values of mutual respect, and tolerance.

I hope that acceptable Churchview and sorry if I've missed others. Please repeat them beginning with "Patriotism:". If people are still interested we can list them.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

That's another definition.

Does it mean different things to different people?

How much does nostalgia play a part in it?

I want my country and the people in it to thrive and for it to be respected on the 'world stage' for its attempts to improve the lot of mankind. Is that patriotism? I dunno...

"Patriotism is not enough. (I) must have no hatred or bitterness for anyone."
?

PoliticsNerd

Shouldn't a UK citizen's primary loyalty and concern be for the well-being and interests of their own country?

I wasn't really asking for opinions.

Patriotism - a willingness to fight for your country’s freedom

So if you’d rather try mediation than killing you’re not patriotic.

Or you’re too old/young to actively fight or you’re a conscientious objector, you’re not patriotic.

If you live in one country but your roots are in another, for which country should you fight? Especially if fighting for your country causes harm to one or the other.

Patriotism carried to extremes can lead to Jingoism, as in "If my country want to annexe your country they are entitled to, whatever your wishes, because we are more important than you are, and besides, we have a much more powerful miltary force than you do, as well as more economicpower"

Mollygo

Patriotism - a willingness to fight for your country’s freedom

So if you’d rather try mediation than killing you’re not patriotic.

Or you’re too old/young to actively fight or you’re a conscientious objector, you’re not patriotic.

If you live in one country but your roots are in another, for which country should you fight? Especially if fighting for your country causes harm to one or the other.

So if we try to include your definition, starting Patriotism: how would you word it Mollygo?

So PN do you agree that fighting for one’s country may not be necessary for being patriotic?

Now let me think . . .
Oh I know. I don’t have to answer that.

25Avalon

You can support Trump and be patriotic and vice versa. One does not exclude the other.

I agree

This is a silly thread.

I’m patriotic in that I was proud to live in a country that was so tolerant but I’m not proud of seeing it veer to the right.

MayBee70

I’m patriotic in that I was proud to live in a country that was so tolerant but I’m not proud of seeing it veer to the right.

So would you say:-

Patriotism is: a pride in a nation's values, like tolerance, and a concern when those values appear to be shifting away from them.

Or

Patriotism is: celebrating a country's positive qualities, such as tolerance, while also being critical when its direction moves in a way that contradicts those ideals.

I've tried them with a different emphasis but you may have a different one.

PoliticsNerd is this thread just an information gathering exercise for a dissertation or essay?

Of course there is. You can make an argument against/for anything.

GrannyGravy13 To have a meaningful discussion about whether UK citizens who support Donald Trump could be considered unpatriotic, we first need to agree on what 'patriotism' actually means. Without a shared understanding of the term we simply talk past each other.

However, if you use such things it for a 'dissertation or essay' I'm glad we've helped.

Re your post Wed 07-May-25 13:37:11 Mollygo, the answer is in my post 07-May-25 10:22:35.

PoliticsNerd you misinterpreted my post.

Are you using the information posted on this thread for your dissertation or an essay/piece you are writing?

Whitewavemark2

Of course there is. You can make an argument against/for anything.

True. Perhaps I should have asked what the arguments were and if their appeared to be a concensus. What do you would have been the best way to put it?

But that is not what the op says. It doesn’t say - what is a meaningful understanding of the concept of “patriotism” it merely asks if there was an argument ……….. etc.

I agree, it didn't. But if you read on from the title it quickly became apparent that definition of patriotism seemed crucial for a worthwhile debate on the thread topic.

Could we perhaps shift our focus back to discussing the definition of patriotism itself? I'm really interested in a productive conversation which includes everyone's thoughts on the concept of patriotism.

I’m inclined to agree with Oreo - this is a silly thread. I’m not sure of the how’s n ways that led to the view of two

PoliticsNerd

Shouldn't a UK citizen's primary loyalty and concern be for the well-being and interests of their own country? Supporting a foreign leader, especially one whose policies can be seen as detrimental to UK interests or values, could be viewed as a betrayal of that loyalty. If you see Trump's policies as harmful to the UK economy then supporting him could be seen as putting a foreign agenda before their own nation's.

Also a UK citizen seen as undermining or criticising UK institutions while praising those of another nation could be interpreted as unpatriotic.

This is probably just another matter of perception but I do begin to feel that the support by some for a foreign leader and therefore a foreign country is now becoming questionable.

Perhaps this could be compared with communist supporters during the cold war, but of course there will be other views too.

Is that all foreign leaders or just those who you don't like?

Honestly, I'm feeling a bit disheartened. My suggestions were meant to be 'coulds' and 'woulds' to spark a wider debate, not to share my personal views. I thought that kind of open discussion would be beneficial. Am I wrong to think debates here could be more than just yes/no opinions and challenges to those who don't conform? It seems I might just have to accept that's the reality."