Shouldn't a UK citizen's primary loyalty and concern be for the well-being and interests of their own country? Supporting a foreign leader, especially one whose policies can be seen as detrimental to UK interests or values, could be viewed as a betrayal of that loyalty. If you see Trump's policies as harmful to the UK economy then supporting him could be seen as putting a foreign agenda before their own nation's.
Also a UK citizen seen as undermining or criticising UK institutions while praising those of another nation could be interpreted as unpatriotic.
This is probably just another matter of perception but I do begin to feel that the support by some for a foreign leader and therefore a foreign country is now becoming questionable.
Perhaps this could be compared with communist supporters during the cold war, but of course there will be other views too.
Traump is a fraud and an opportunist.
He is using the 'cover' of Patriotism to appeal to the person
who blames everyone and everything for their own personal
situation.
In reality he is feathering his own nest and keeping other
opportunists satisfied with financial gain.
He and Farage are manipulators but both have little intelligence to go with it. Those who follow are of the same
ilk.
Patriotism is to take pride in your country. It does not preclude supporting or admiring another country or leader. It also does not necessarily blind you to wanting to make your country better. I really cannot see the point of this so called debate.
That’s rather rude halfpintI and somewhat bigoted or are you just being provocative? It’s also off piste from the “debate”.
Okay Avalon. I can't say I'm not disappointed but I will "so called" debate elsewhere.
What did Avolon say to encourage that Politics Nerd ?
Iam64
I’m inclined to agree with Oreo - this is a silly thread. I’m not sure of the how’s n ways that led to the view of two
I agree that it’s l a silly thread too.
Even answering yes or no is offering an opinion and before it even got going, we were told the OP didn’t want opinions - well not opinions that didn’t fit her opinion of what an opinion should be anyway.
It's okay folks, calm down. I think we all know now that posting has to fit into a tiny little cliche on this forum. There are definitely pleasanter places to be.
In peace-time you can admire another country's leader or politics all you want. I cannot see how doing so can be seen as unpatriotic. Presumably , you still prefer your own country to any other? If you don't, then you should consider moving to the country you prefer.
But it doesn't.
There are by my last count, twenty thousand threads on Trump, and quite frequent discussion of why people might support him. I suspect we have even had some previous analysis around patriotism and Trump supporters ( at least in relation to America) so it would fit in well with what you describe as the cliches. People will respond in the way they see fit, it isn't possible to control the way people want to debate.
I suppose, politicsnerd, that most of us didn't realise early enough that you wanted to debate the meaning of "patriotism".
If the thread had been called that, those of us who didn't want to debate that would have skipped on by.
I wrote a long piece early on asking what really the thread was about because it was seemingly pointless and I couldn't get a handle on what you really wanted.
I read it back to myself and decided I was a bit snippy so I deleted it.
I think a simpler heading - maybe "what does patriotism mean to you?" or "what do you think are the main elements of being patriotic?" (for example) may have drawn the conversation into a more productive area.
This is something I've definitely pondered and discussed at home.
AuntieE
In peace-time you can admire another country's leader or politics all you want. I cannot see how doing so can be seen as unpatriotic. Presumably , you still prefer your own country to any other? If you don't, then you should consider moving to the country you prefer.
The compliments GN e.g. about President Macron, or Angela Merkel illustrate just what you’re saying.
PoliticsNerd
It's okay folks, calm down. I think we all know now that posting has to fit into a tiny little cliche on this forum. There are definitely pleasanter places to be.
Do you mean tiny little clique, or are you suggesting tiny little people are only capable of thinking in cliches? Predictive text can change meaning
Iam64
Who knows?
Talk about patronising. Snotty wth it. I fink there are kangaroos loose in the top paddick in nerdland.
nanna8
No. I think supporting Starmer is unpatriotic though.
Really?
I think supporting Trump is utterly misguided and tends to be the same folk who support Reform.
However, it’s entirely their choice.
nanna8
No. I think supporting Starmer is unpatriotic though.
Why?
Here's Starmer on patriotism.
"To be proudly English means to be proudly ourselves, to hold firm to our convictions and be able to speak our mind – and be civil when others speak theirs."
“The cross of St George belongs to every person who loves this country and seeks to make it better – a symbol of pride, belonging and inclusion.
“We cannot allow it to become the preserve of the tiny minority who want to drive hatred in our communities.”
I'd have to question our present, and previous, government's patriotism to it's own UK citizens first and foremost. The UK is now just a means to an end for other nations for what THEY want, rather than what WE want.
There have been so many threads on patriotism on GN and MN and always similar comments about what people think it means. So no reason not to have another thread.
2023
www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1325237-Can-you-be-seen-as-being-patriotic-if-you-support-one-political-party-no-matter-what-they-do-to-the-country-as-a-whole
2021
www.gransnet.com/forums/chat/1304751-Patriotism-what-do-you-think-about-it?pg=2
2014
www.gransnet.com/forums/chat/1209932-Patriotic
Or my favourite (not by me) from 2004
If patriotism is caring about your country and feeling pride at the achievements of your countrymen and women then yes. If it's belligerence and a stupid ignorance of the rest of the world, no.
Personally I'm very proud of the history of the various civil rights movements in this country, from the Peasants' Revot to the Tolpuddle Martyrs, William Wilberforce to the Suffragettes, to the founding of the NHS and welfare state. Just wish there was more of it!
Benid0rmbelle
I'd have to question our present, and previous, government's patriotism to it's own UK citizens first and foremost. The UK is now just a means to an end for other nations for what THEY want, rather than what WE want.
Perhaps the answer to that is in Mollygo's post -
"If patriotism is caring about your country and feeling pride at the achievements of your countrymen and women then yes. If it's belligerence and a stupid ignorance of the rest of the world, no."
Other countries exist, and exist in a world where they and we are increasingly in contact and dependence upon one another. If we ignore them and are belligerent towards what THEY want, they are likely to increase their belligerence toward what WE want.
Statecraft is more subtle these days than sending in a warship or imposing a crippling tariff.
PoliticsNerd
In answer to henetha, a question mark simply indicates that the sentence before it is a question.
Rosie51 asked: "What is a discussion if not opinions?"
An unfounded opinion is not a discussion even though opinions formed are what makes a discussion. A discussion needs opinions that are grounded in something more than just a feeling or a hunch and that "something" is the explanation of how you arrive at your opinion. When opinions are unfounded, they don't add to the conversation; they weigh it down and prevent us from engaging with each other. A healthy discussion isn't just about having opinions, it's about being able to explain why you hold those opinions, and being open to having your opinions challenged and refined by evidence and reasoning.
In answer to henetha, a question mark simply indicates that the sentence before it is a question.
Precisely, so henetha is correct.
A question is asked and that invites answers which can be opinions.
The answer to Rosie51 does sound somewhat pompous.
Garage is the biggest Trump supporter going - Reform voters support Farage and therefore Trump.
So yes - unpatriotic, dense and irresponsible for allowing racism to look ‘respectable’.
+Trump is a fraud and an opportunist.
He is using the 'cover' of Patriotism to appeal to the person who blames everyone and everything for their own personal
situation*
In reality he is feathering his own nest and keeping other opportunists satisfied with financial gain
He and Farage are manipulators but both have little intelligence to go with it. Those who follow are of the same ilk
Agree
Yes
Why oh why do we keep going on about TRUMP? He's a pantomime villain, bad orange man, someone we love to hate and in so doing fail to notice all the other things that are going on in the world that can do far more harm. For instance the WHO treaty which, if it goes through, will deprive us of our sovereignty in matters 'medical' - arguably 'unpatriotic'? Starmer's avowed preference of Davos over Westminster, (yes, he did say so) - surely unpatriotic? I could put my tin-foil hat on and wonder if Trump is a tool of certain groups, such as multi-national corporations and the so-called 'deep state', put there to draw our attention away from things that matter - such as said WHO treaty. Like Goldstein in George Orwell's '1984'. ''1984' is a very useful read - but then Big Brother and Goldstein can, if we wish, be projected according to political/emotional bias.....
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