Reform activists depict female cabinet ministers as cows in abattoir.

David49

eazybee

I don't think school classrooms are allowed to use CCTV to monitor children's behaviour; it was suggested some years ago in an attempt to show parents how their children actually behaved, but was strictly forbidden.

Well we have got what we wanted, we want them to behave as adults when they have no concept discipline at 18.
Of course the parents that do care about behavior give their children a big advantage, only for the system to do its best I do that.

undo that

You’re in a particularly negative place where our children are concerned David49.

of course the parents that do care about behaviour give their children a big advantage, only for the system to do its best to undo that

What does this mean? My concern about the system ,is it’s stretched to breaking point. Class sizes too large. SEND children are (rightly) integrated into mainstream but without the necessary staffing levels or facilities so all children miss out. In that way, the system ie teachers are working hard but often failing

Well those adults in reform haven't learned how to behave that's for sure.

I disagree with the casual dismissal of blatantly aggressive behaviour.
It doesn't need legal intervention it just needed Farage to say that this was not acceptable in Reform. He didn't.
Starmer could have defended those women too.

Are you from the US David49 I noticed your spelling of 'behavior'.
We spell it as behaviour in the UK.

(I'm glad to mention in the article quoted in the O/P the Labour Party did respond, its just not been passed on. They criticised the attack on women politicians for the reasons we've outlined and said Farage should speak out and not allow it)

Wyllow3

(I'm glad to mention in the article quoted in the O/P the Labour Party did respond, its just not been passed on. They criticised the attack on women politicians for the reasons we've outlined and said Farage should speak out and not allow it)

I'm glad to hear it. Farage has gone down even more in my estimation if it's possible to go any lower.

Wyllow3

I'm returning to the O/P subject matter and as regards prosecution and the benefits or otherwise of using the law in this kind of situation I think its a moderation in all things.

Enough prosecutions to make clear what boundaries are to the public without turning it into a constant litigation situation, or a situation that makes politics all about publicity stunts that that away consideration of policy.
Picking on female politicians and abattoirs is nasty stuff imo and worthy of debate, publicity, at least asking Party leaders to condemn it.

I think you're writing the same I was trying to write. Personally, I find the stunt obnoxious, but I don't think it's worse than some political cartoons I've seen. Pragmatically, I don't think anything would be achieved by prosecution.

Nevertheless, I don't like living in an environment where it's becoming "cool" to flout authority. Strangely enough Oreo that's what I think you were writing too. Only a total numbskull would advocate total freedom to do and say as we want. Society matters. Somehow we have to find a balance between allowing people to express themselves and respecting others and those who try to enforce rules, working within the constraints which society itself has imposed.

The more I think about it, the more I think that social cohesion is the key - and that's a different topic from discussing a crass misogynistic stunt. Unfortunately, I suspect social cohesion is "woke" and probably for the chop in any authority run by Reform.

I do take mansplaining as an insult against the male point of view
What is the male point to view? Are you suggesting that all men think the same? I don't believe that to be the case case. If so, why are there different political parties?

You may disagree with anything I say without the mansplaining insult, on occasions I have used womansplaing as a response insult.
I'm not sure I understand this, either. Are you saying that if someone accuses a man of mansplaining, she is womansplaining? I defined mansplaining above. How are you defining womansplaining? I don't think it's a word, but if it were what would it mean, and how would it apply in the context of this thread?

David49

David49

Might improve behavior of pupils.

Might protect teacher and help other children learn more.

I’m not sure if UK schools have the worst reputation for behavior in the world but I do know many have a reputation far better some third word nations too.

But as you are all satisfied that it has sunk so low that’s fine.

Who has said they are satisfied that [what?] has sunk so low?

People (ie women with experience of classroom situations) have said that, contrary to your post, there is no CCTV in classrooms. On what basis are you explaining to them that you are right (I see no retraction), and how do you see their contradiction of your post as suggesting that they are satisfied that anything has 'sunk so low'?

growstuff

Wyllow3

I'm returning to the O/P subject matter and as regards prosecution and the benefits or otherwise of using the law in this kind of situation I think its a moderation in all things.

Enough prosecutions to make clear what boundaries are to the public without turning it into a constant litigation situation, or a situation that makes politics all about publicity stunts that that away consideration of policy.
Picking on female politicians and abattoirs is nasty stuff imo and worthy of debate, publicity, at least asking Party leaders to condemn it.

I think you're writing the same I was trying to write. Personally, I find the stunt obnoxious, but I don't think it's worse than some political cartoons I've seen. Pragmatically, I don't think anything would be achieved by prosecution.

Nevertheless, I don't like living in an environment where it's becoming "cool" to flout authority. Strangely enough Oreo that's what I think you were writing too. Only a total numbskull would advocate total freedom to do and say as we want. Society matters. Somehow we have to find a balance between allowing people to express themselves and respecting others and those who try to enforce rules, working within the constraints which society itself has imposed.

The more I think about it, the more I think that social cohesion is the key - and that's a different topic from discussing a crass misogynistic stunt. Unfortunately, I suspect social cohesion is "woke" and probably for the chop in any authority run by Reform.

Yes it’s what I was writing too😃 there may even be other subjects we agree on too!

The trouble with prosecuting something that might cause offence is that not everything offends (or distresses) everyone. It's the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' thing.

Maybe showing that there is no reasonable explanation for doing something other than to cause offence could be where the line is drawn, whether of not you (generic) I or someone else would personally be offended?

Yes the term offense is a tricky one, I am fairly offended by the idea of people being fined for swearing but I don't have the right to not be offended.

Doodledog

The trouble with prosecuting something that might cause offence is that not everything offends (or distresses) everyone. It's the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' thing.

Maybe showing that there is no reasonable explanation for doing something other than to cause offence could be where the line is drawn, whether of not you (generic) I or someone else would personally be offended?

Hmmm! If I was this man's lawyer, I'd come up with something like the following ...

It was a joke - like a political cartoon, but in 3D.
In my opinion, the three female politicians are responsible for the Labour policies I dislike most - that's why I highlighted them.
The abattoir reference was because I think they should "get the chop", which is a common idiom for being fired.
All just my opinion!

Yes, I'm sure most things would be easily defended, and be a waste of time and money.

Galaxy

Yes the term offense is a tricky one, I am fairly offended by the idea of people being fined for swearing but I don't have the right to not be offended.

Would it be perfectly OK if somebody were to mock your appearance, accent, mannerisms, to laugh about you to your face and behind your back, constantly criticise your work or your opinions, etc etc etc?

Doodledog

Yes, I'm sure most things would be easily defended, and be a waste of time and money.

Probably better to add a bit of realism to the scene and order a dumper truck of cow muck to be deposited outside the man's drive.

Doodledog

David49

David49

Might improve behavior of pupils.

Might protect teacher and help other children learn more.

I’m not sure if UK schools have the worst reputation for behavior in the world but I do know many have a reputation far better some third word nations too.

But as you are all satisfied that it has sunk so low that’s fine.

Who has said they are satisfied that [what?] has sunk so low?

People (ie women with experience of classroom situations) have said that, contrary to your post, there is no CCTV in classrooms. On what basis are you explaining to them that you are right (I see no retraction), and how do you see their contradiction of your post as suggesting that they are satisfied that anything has 'sunk so low'?

I’m happy with my statement that pupil behavior and discipline is poor, CCTV in classrooms would give a good deterrent and evidence of disruption and would be a positive step.

As CCTV has been discarded and whatever other measures taken have failed to improve behavior, I havn’t heard of any upcoming changes so we continue with a failing system that society seems content with.

I suppose I wouldn't particularly like people mocking me growstuff but I wouldn't want those people arrested. I have no problem with people constantly criticising my opinions that is absolutely fine.
I don't actually think CCTV would make any difference to behaviour in the classroom, why would it? It is not as if difficult behaviour happens in secret, it is often done in front of an 'audience' .

I could give numerous ideas about how to support behaviour in classrooms as I am sure could many others on the thread. It is a highly complex subject ranging from children with complex disabilities being expected to fit into a system that can't possibly meet their needs, to children who are unable to function in any way due to trauma, to children with no boundaries, etc etc. It's a societal issue and therfore doesn't really respond well to simplistic solutions.

When were you last in a classroom to see poor pupil behaviour and poor discipline, David?

I don't think CCTV has been discarded - I don't think it was ever there, so there have been no changes to that. Galaxy has said that in her professional opinion it would not be a deterrent to poor behaviour, and I would add to that from the perspective of university level teaching that intellectual copyright would prevent CCTV from being used in lectures.

Some are recorded by the staff themselves and made available to enrolled students, but anyone else recording them would breach intellectual property laws. Data protection laws would also be broken if students were captured on film, and I assume that this would also apply to recordings in schools.

Galaxy

I could give numerous ideas about how to support behaviour in classrooms as I am sure could many others on the thread. It is a highly complex subject ranging from children with complex disabilities being expected to fit into a system that can't possibly meet their needs, to children who are unable to function in any way due to trauma, to children with no boundaries, etc etc. It's a societal issue and therfore doesn't really respond well to simplistic solutions.

60 yrs ago there were plenty in my school with complex issues undiagnosed labeled slow learners but behavior was generally good. We had communal cloakrooms, desks where all our school stuff remained, everyone respected others property with very little pilfering.
There was no 6th form we were all prepared for the world of work at 15 or 16, some went straight to technical college most found a job.

Despite all the changes the outcome seems so much worse for so many.

I would be interested in teachers views, I am not a teacher, I go into lots of classrooms (primary) in my current role.

I don't think this thread is the place for talking about teachers. If David is keen to do that, he should start a new thread and not derail this one further.

That's absolutely not true David, sorry but that is my area of knowledge, you may have had some children who struggled with learning but the children with complex disabilities that I am talking about would have been in institutions. I am not saying that was a good thing, I am just stating what was the situation at the time.

David49

Galaxy

I could give numerous ideas about how to support behaviour in classrooms as I am sure could many others on the thread. It is a highly complex subject ranging from children with complex disabilities being expected to fit into a system that can't possibly meet their needs, to children who are unable to function in any way due to trauma, to children with no boundaries, etc etc. It's a societal issue and therfore doesn't really respond well to simplistic solutions.

60 yrs ago there were plenty in my school with complex issues undiagnosed labeled slow learners but behavior was generally good. We had communal cloakrooms, desks where all our school stuff remained, everyone respected others property with very little pilfering.
There was no 6th form we were all prepared for the world of work at 15 or 16, some went straight to technical college most found a job.

Despite all the changes the outcome seems so much worse for so many.

You’re probably right `Grandmabatty, the subject of classroom behaviour deserves its own thread. I wasn’t a teacher but have family and friends who were/are. I worked with children and families for many years so I met many adults and children whose complex needs/trauma Galaxy refers to.

David’s reference to ‘slow learners’, good behaviour etc totally misses what it felt like for ‘slow learners’. It’s also impossible to look back on that period without acknowledging how different society and social policies was. ‘Difficult ‘ or neglected Children were routinely shipped off to huge boarding schools. Their emotional and behavioural problems were managed in an environment of physical, sexual and emotional abuse. But. They were out of sight and out of classrooms. Those children and their parents were included in the move to inclusivity so were to be supported at home and attend main stream schools.
I’ll stop here, because we all know what happened to family support and additional teaching assistants over recent years.