Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

Galaxy

Lots of people complained about masks particularly in relation to children.

I was never altogether sure about the motivation for those complaints.

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Religion wise:

Religion wise

"Why do some Muslim choose to wear a burka?

Wiki:

For some women, wearing the burqa represents modesty, piety, and cultural identity, while others choose it as an expression of personal or religious commitment.”

(I’m against “forced” wearing of course so asked why women might choose to)

I’ve posted 2 photos to show there is a difference between the full cover up that has been portrayed before upthread with what I've seen more of.

More "How do they actually manage to 'live their lives' whilst wearing a "shroud"? "

How do they eat? How do they sneeze? How do they lip-read someone else wearing one?

There may be a few that wear them by genuine choice - but I'd be willing to bet most of the wearers of them are doing so "by quiet force". As in I've come to the conclusion many people/maybe most people just go through life doing what is easiest not to be a "tall poppy that gets noticed - and some might cut them down". So if their relatives/husband/friends are wearing this - then I wouldnt be at all surprised if a lot of the wearers are only wearing them because of cultural pressure - rather than by informed thought-out personal choice.

Most people like to conform to what they see as "societal norms". The last 5 years were an object lesson for all of us on that front...

Aveline

So do we just take women covered up like draped faceless statues whether or not they want to be?

I don’t think we should accept it in the UK..A birqua and niqab ban would not only liberate women from a rotten culture which seeks to muffle up women while the menfolk stroll around in cool shorts and tee shirts but would help with integration in the host country.Various other countries have done it and so should we.

Sarnia

No. It isn't a religious requirement as far as I know. It's purpose seems to be displaying the subservience of women who wear them.

As far as I am aware, the Koran does not, explicitly, demand that women are completely covered in this way, but calls for both men and women to be covered 'modestly'.

I once saw a family group in Russel Square, London, where the women were all wearing the niqab and the loose, black, abaya, whereas the men (apart from one elder family member) were wearing tight jeans and t-shirts.

So clearly, the demand for 'modesty' didn't apply to them.

Should we care? I don't know. But it's so alien to our own culture. And, as a feminist of sorts, this subservience of women is something I find hard to accept.

Of course, someone will tell me possibly that the women might choose to dress like that. Maybe they do. But, what if they don't?

Women fight for equality, not to be treated as second-class citizens, not to be coerced by men into subservience - yet multi-culturalism demands that we make exceptions. And this, I think, is what causes problems, the problem of accepting multi-culturalism - where all cultures are supposedly equal, when clearly they aren't. At least, not if the women are being forced to wear a garment they would rather not wear.

I don't care about the men wearing western casual dress - but the hypocrisy of such men is worrying. I once had an online debate with a Muslim male about western culture. It wasn't so much what he said, but his attitude towards me, as a female with an opinion was quite unpleasant, to say the least, particularly as the conversation started quite civilly. It ended with him suggesting that eventually western women would be forced to come to heel (for want of a better way of expressing it).

... these are the issues that are not addressed, and doing so is likely to be met with accusations of bigotry. I don't know how many women dress 'modestly' either to please their men or because it's demanded of them - maybe they are a minority, there's no way of knowing. If they are doing so by choice, then that's their choice, so who's to say they should be banned from wearing the garment? Although I do agree that covering the face in institutions like nurseries, schools, etc, should be. And - do the women object? If they work in these institutions, probably not.

"It ended with him suggesting that eventually western women would be forced to come to heel"

We have men in the West like him think Andrew Tate, think of some of the traditional Christian Sects in the USA? Just saying its not unique.

Dickens Are you sure you weren't having a conversation with Andrew Tate in disguise?

Snap Wyllow.

I did try and find % of Muslim women wearing different coverings and they just aren't there, even across Europe. The best I could do was look at it within Saudi Arabia

Overview

Yes, the number of Saudi women wearing a burqa (or niqab, a face veil) has decreased in recent years, and the abaya (a loose cloak) is no longer required in public.

Reasons:

public policy and statements loosening rules as society edges towards more secular

Changing Cultural Attitudes
more women are choosing to wear more colorful or Western-style clothing, and the abaya is becoming more diverse in style and color.

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“How do they eat? How do they sneeze?”

The covering (whichever) is only worn when out in a public place, not at home with members of the family.

At home clothes are bright, follow fashion and are sometimes quite skimpy😬

FriedGreenTomatoes2

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I don't believe (b) to be correct because it is as much a cultural matter as a religious one.

People have different ideas about a modern United Kingdom.

For example many believe as a liberal democracy we should allow people the right to choose as opposed to telling people what to wear/not wear within sensible guidelines that we've discussed above already with degrees of face coverings across the board

ie dress codes in schools, hospitals, safety concerns, need for masks or not and so on .

growstuff

Snap Wyllow.

Yes, its not to deny Dickens point, its rather to enlarge on the theme.

It is more than a fashion choice for many and represents their culture and religion, or that of their family. As long as they have free choice in the matter then that is OK.

But in some situations it is to be debated whether it might be appropriate to lower or remove it - I am thinking legal situations like being on a jury - there would be no way of knowing if the same person were turning up each time.

Personally I hate seeing them - they destroy the most basic aspect of human communication which is reading people's expressions. But what I think simply does not matter as no-one is forcing me to wear one.

It has to be acknowledged that the history of the burqa relates to a desire by men to have women cover their bodies - part of the male ownership principle that has dogged all cultures to some extent or another. I do see them as a backward looking item and I simply do not believe any woman who says she wears it as a fashion item.

Should we ban them? - I do not think the law can dictate what people wear, but in some situations asking someone to show their face is necessary and appropriate.

I have only read the first page but do people understand what a burka is?

It’s different from women wearing a hair scarf (my Gran covered her hair all the time as did the Queen) or a hijab

Given how important human faces are in communication, I find it hard to accept that a burqa is apparel in the same way as most other clothes are.

Then there is the point that other face coverings have to be removed in certain circumstances. In banks I even had to remove my cycle helmet when I was cycling regularly even though it didn't cover my face. This is irrational.

And then there is the fact that it's only women's faces (and the rest of them) that has to be covered, never men's. I cannot accept this sexist inequality is really fundamentally tolerable in a democratic society.

I take your point Luckygirl3 but what I discovered on reading up was that a traditional approach also means men wearing "modest dress code" (the head and between the waist and the knees). Yes within different Muslim countries it varies!

I found a long Wiki article on female Muslim dress through the world country by country (skim read!) and it did allude to the pressures of why a bit too. I doubt anyone would want to read it but
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_veiling_practices_by_country

I agree with your last sentence, that makes total common sense, it is put into place in relevant institutions.

As good Catholic girls in the 60s we were obliged to cover our heads when attending Sunday mass until we thought sod that for a lark, it was just symbolic of controlling male ideology and we wanted no truck with it.
Wear what you want ladies but don't try and pretend it's got nothing to do with male dominance. And don't make such a bloody song and dance about how "modest" you are or not, nobody cares.

It doesn’t fit with our way of life. Some call it ‘modern Britain’ but were we ever asked if we wanted this alien way of life transported over here? I don’t think so. When people go to Dubai for example there are very strict rules travellers have to adhere to. There are no excuses made if you don’t. Many Westerners are in prison for not adhering to the rules in other countries. Yet here people are allowed to build a country within a country and we are all expected to suck it up or be called racist. If people move to the UK then they should fit in with Western ways which doesn’t mean wearing a full burqa.

Primrose53

lafergar

Primrose53

Yes it should be banned. In many cases they are very dangerous. Go to Leicester and see the women driving around in great big 4 x 4s with full face coverings and just a slit to see through. You can’t tell me that’s safe.

Is it the garment, the car or the people in Leicester that cause you such concern please?

I thought it was obvious.
I am talking about those huge 4 x 4s which could cause serious injury or death if the woman driving has only a narrow slit to see through. It’s half the sized of your average letterbox so imagine how little you could see.

Do you have any data to hand about women driving 4x4 cars wearing a face covering half the size of a letterbox causing accidents?

According to other people "they" are subservient and unable to do much for themselves, let alone drive a big car.

Why is it only women who have to wear a burkha? It's a symbol of female oppression. Look at the photographs of middle eastern women in the 70s and compare them to now. Why the clamp down?

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Tragedy for women

CariadAgain

More "How do they actually manage to 'live their lives' whilst wearing a "shroud"? "

How do they eat? How do they sneeze? How do they lip-read someone else wearing one?

There may be a few that wear them by genuine choice - but I'd be willing to bet most of the wearers of them are doing so "by quiet force". As in I've come to the conclusion many people/maybe most people just go through life doing what is easiest not to be a "tall poppy that gets noticed - and some might cut them down". So if their relatives/husband/friends are wearing this - then I wouldnt be at all surprised if a lot of the wearers are only wearing them because of cultural pressure - rather than by informed thought-out personal choice.

Most people like to conform to what they see as "societal norms". The last 5 years were an object lesson for all of us on that front...

I suppose you could ask somebody who wears one?

The people I know tend to throw it on for the school run and put it on a peg as soon as they come home.

Yes

Surely the Highway code should ban anyone covering their eyes while driving. If women are going to wear a burka driving they should be expected to take an eye test wearing it. This will include tests of field of vision.

I do not think we should ban anything, but we should make it clear places and circumstances where having your full face visible would be compulsory - just as motorcyclists take their helmets off. Going into public buildings, anywhere there are security constraints, including preventing crime, so if you went into a bank your face must be fully visible, also when using a cash machine, driving unless you have passed an eye test in the garment. Men who would wear their hoods up when walking do not do so when driving.

Those who wear the burka - wear it and accept that wearing it will restrict where you can go.