Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

Smileless2012

GN only looks at posts that have been reported Whitewavemark.

Do we know that for sure?

Not that it makes any difference.

How would any ban be enforced? Public removal? Arrest if not compliant? Prosecution? I can't see that's feasible or a worthwhile use of resources.

OldFrill

How would any ban be enforced? Public removal? Arrest if not compliant? Prosecution? I can't see that's feasible or a worthwhile use of resources.

You need to see how it is enforced in countries who have done so.

TerriBull

I missed the offending post, a thread such as this is going to obviously attract conflicting opinions, I'm conflicted myself as to 'banning', I can appreciate the one argument against that 'personal freedom' as opposed to a multitude of arguments for the ban. That aside I wish the person who has caused FGT to identify themselves, it's the least they could do, "you have the right to be offended" but at least give your reasons otherwise sneaky, covert and cowardly to do this to a well liked poster who is having a lot of personal anxiety. It's quite apparent FGT often wears her heart on her sleeve, and I imagine at a time of heightened emotions this ban will cause her another layer of unnecessary upset.

I missed the offending post...

So did I.

But - are you (we) sure that it is necessarily someone on this thread that reported her post?

People read or lurk on threads without necessarily contributing.

It's quite apparent FGT often wears her heart on her sleeve, and I imagine at a time of heightened emotions this ban will cause her another layer of unnecessary upset.

Quite.

I'm with those who believe we should allow offensive posts to stand (and I'm not suggesting FGT's was) and let GN moderate as they see fit.

I've only ever reported one offensive prankster - along with most others who were commenting at the time, for being vulgarly and personally abusive of one of our members.

I certainly have no intention of ever reporting anyone who might 'colourfully' hold an opinion I disagreed with! And, if I ever do, I will have the grace to inform them, personally. I think many grans on here feel the same.

I'm with those who believe we should allow offensive posts to stand (and I'm not suggesting FGT's was) and let GN moderate as they see fit

Which is exactly what happened as far as we know.

It could be anyone who reported FGT, of course, because her politics are not to everyone's taste and she has received a lot of fairly robust comments in return, which she has always dealt with politely and with grace.

It's a pity if this is a ban and not, perhaps, a suspension.
It seems sad when GN can be such a support during difficult times.

Whitewavemark2

*I'm with those who believe we should allow offensive posts to stand (and I'm not suggesting FGT's was) and let GN moderate as they see fit*

Which is exactly what happened as far as we know.

I don't think GNHQ keep an eye on every thread unless something is reported as against guidelines.

I might be wrong but they are very busy!

Yes. The women cover up so men can't see them. It's, in my eyes. oppressive and when I see a women in a Burqa, I feel uncomfortable and sad. They can't smile at you, as I do them.

I imagine that when a few reports have come in, before considering banning/suspension, GN then do make a search to check on a wider basis.

I raised the issue of the issues around "taking into consideration" on the last page. We don't know all posters personal difficulties and circumstances, so how can GNHQ's make all decisions relative to perusal circumstances.

Back to the burka, a poster pointed out that we don't really want to import this sort of restriction on women, but that did make me think,

"but for the women coming, it may give them a chance to leave that sort of thinking behind by coming here"

Dickens, no I'm not sure, as you say it could be a moderator, I suppose, like many on here I'm feeling sad and sorry for a well loved poster, at such a difficult time too. FGT has often expressed how the support on GN has geed her up when her spirits have been very low. I know others on this forum have lost their soul mates and I read those bereaved threads with a heavy heart knowing I could be in that position one day. FGT expresses with feeling the very best of what is clearly a strong and solid marriage, with humour, tongue in cheek and at times self deprecating. Her palpable anxiety kind of springs off the page for the worries she has about "himself" So yes maybe I'm reacting in a "oh no! has she been banned for good" knee jerk manner" when I banged off my inner thoughts.

I really hope she comes back, she is such a character, never beige imo. I know at times her politics are too out there for some, but I like her honesty, I might not always agree, why would any of us agree about everything and anything.

Wyllow3

Back to the burka, a poster pointed out that we don't really want to import this sort of restriction on women, but that did make me think,

"but for the women coming, it may give them a chance to leave that sort of thinking behind by coming here"

Their daughters might learn a different perspective if they have been to school here, unless it's a religious school, but often it sounds like the controlling of women by their menfolk.

GN is a self moderated site Whitewavemark which means the members report any post they find offensive etc for GN to take a look at.

Returning to the original subject, it may have been mooted up thread, that there are Muslim women who willingly wear the burka. I've read that one such reasoning on their part, is here in the west, society can be very judgemental about women's appearance and such apparel grants them anonymity in that respect. It's not really a good enough reason though and wearing the burka in public only garners gasps and at times criticisms for lack of assimilation. I reiterate again, it's a barrier and in certain contexts a possible security threat, face coverings have been used for insidious reasons. In any case, all that aside, I think there should be a shared sense of sisterhood with the Muslim woman who doesn't have the luxury of choice and are forced to cover up head to foot and would love to have the freedoms that their western counterparts enjoy and take for granted. No one wants to see women being forced and coerced by men, sometimes it comes in the opposite guise, Bianca Censori paraded around half naked by Kanye West, was that coercive control or merely exhibitionism? if so, the latter would demonstrate a complete lack of respect for those around them. A contrary extreme that takes no account of what is acceptable to society.

TerriBull

I know at times her politics are too out there for some, but I like her honesty, I might not always agree, why would any of us agree about everything and anything.

My thoughts exactly.

Allira - interesting reflections indeed. its definitely the case that as the generations continue to go to school (providing its not a faith school) that girls and women (and indeed boys and men are gradually changing)

If I can share a relevant reflection, I was in my local park, which is in a nice bit of town, playing fields, basketball, play areas, footie pitch marked out and so on, and there was a visit from a school that I know has no playing fields (an old Victorian one). So nearly all the children were of Muslim origin, given where it is. It's highly Ofsead rated, as its seems that parents are fairly aspirational.

One group of children were playing a game of mixed cricket girls and boys, a few bold girls had sat near the path to see the dogs pass, (and talk to a passing stranger) some boys playing informal footie.

It's these small things that change attitudes as the children grow up. Those girls will want to be different from their grandparents, the school would not tolerate aggressive behaviour by the boys to the girls.

(its why I'm for carrots not sticks in regard to "laying down the law)"

Smileless2012

GN is a self moderated site Whitewavemark which means the members report any post they find offensive etc for GN to take a look at.

Well - yes - that is right. But if I ran/owned GN I would also run a sample post examination, to ensure that the moderators were being told of dodgy posts in a timely correct manner.

I would not want to be litigated against for missing illegality.

It could be that the system is able to pick out dodgy posts without the need to actively moderate. We don’t know.

wyllow yes I do agree. These things are much better to be allowed to change “organically” .

Provided it doesn’t allow too much division and disruption in the meantime.

That's a good point @ 12.24 Whitewavemark. I have suggested in the past that GN don't take a reported post in isolation, especially if someone's been goaded and has reacted because of that.

A single post taken out of context with the best will in the world can be misconstrued.

Very much hoping its a suspension, I can't imagine a ban for FGT. We've crossed swords politically as she sometimes likes to provoke a wee bit but recently it ends up in a genuine "Pax🙂" having both got familiar with it.

Its just that as I've said before many of us have had personal difficulties but not all choose to talk about them so when it comes to "allowances being made" how on earth can GN moderators apply a "fair to all" system?

Whitewavemark2

wyllow yes I do agree. These things are much better to be allowed to change “organically” .

Provided it doesn’t allow too much division and disruption in the meantime.

It just happens naturally when you don't "push it". I bet in my park it was the teachers deliberately setting up a "boys and girls" cricket situation but not a forced one, I looked closely and they all were having fun. It's a two way thing as well, by getting out of the area where they lived they could also see different things.

But it is a bit sad that it does change as children become teenagers and social pressures increase, but then we are dealing with another world of social media sadly.

Re small things that change attitudes
Back when I was first teaching in Liverpool, only fathers came, or mothers who brought their children to parent evenings to translate, because many of the mothers were slow to learn English as they were confined to the house and mostly mixing with each other.
At least that has changed somewhat, in that more of them go out to work and mixing is more usual, so their ability to communicate is not a problem for most.
But back then, none of the mothers I dealt with wore full face coverings or even niqabs.
One limitation exchanged for another?

Whitewavemark2

OldFrill

How would any ban be enforced? Public removal? Arrest if not compliant? Prosecution? I can't see that's feasible or a worthwhile use of resources.

You need to see how it is enforced in countries who have done so.

Generally it's not, and if it is the women involved remain hidden and more ostracised from society.

I think telling any human what they can and cannot wear under the guise of religious, cultural or cultural norms is completely wrong.

Mollygo

Re small things that change attitudes
Back when I was first teaching in Liverpool, only fathers came, or mothers who brought their children to parent evenings to translate, because many of the mothers were slow to learn English as they were confined to the house and mostly mixing with each other.
At least that has changed somewhat, in that more of them go out to work and mixing is more usual, so their ability to communicate is not a problem for most.
But back then, none of the mothers I dealt with wore full face coverings or even niqabs.
One limitation exchanged for another?

Interesting. What I did reflect on your post .......was that maybe it depends on which Muslim community we are referring to? Different countries, different cultures

For example, back in the 1970's I lived in inner city Manchester and my road had first generation Pakistanis. No burka, always a headscarf, even back then.
But recent Somalian refugee families - we've a specific community here - is where you could see the burka on some women but over the 5 years I've observed them (its close to my gym and shops so did regular drive by's at come home from school time, there are less burkas) (changed to eye views not all covered)