Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

Whitewavemark2

I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

He is. But he has supported some very right-wing view of late. Perhaps, like many older people, he is economically left and socially right?

Anniebach

Whitewavemark2 Fri 11-Jul-25 08:05:26
I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

Shouldn’t a Labour Party member criticise the doctors strike ?

Sorry my post was to politicsnerd who suggested that he was right wing.

Anniebach

Whitewavemark2 Fri 11-Jul-25 08:05:26
I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

Shouldn’t a Labour Party member criticise the doctors strike ?

He can critise what he wants. It is, however, useful to understand people's bias if someone suggests he is a figure whose views count in some way.

Perhaps after all the training here, doctors should sign up to working for the NHS for ‘x’ number of years? That seems only fair - rather than taking their newly qualified skills abroad?

👋 thank you nanna8 it’s lovely to be back!

Quote PoliticsNerd Fri 11-Jul-25 08:21:47
Anniebach
Whitewavemark2 Fri 11-Jul-25 08:05:26
I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

Shouldn’t a Labour Party member criticise the doctors strike ?
He can critise what he wants. It is, however, useful to understand people's bias if someone suggests he is a figure whose views count in some way.

Biased as a doctor or Labour Party member ?

If someone is biased, they prefer one group of people to another, and behave unfairly as a result.

PoliticsNerd

Whitewavemark2

I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

He is. But he has supported some very right-wing view of late. Perhaps, like many older people, he is economically left and socially right?

More likely economically right and socially left when you think about it PoliticsNerd!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Perhaps after all the training here, doctors should sign up to working for the NHS for ‘x’ number of years? That seems only fair - rather than taking their newly qualified skills abroad?

👋 thank you nanna8 it’s lovely to be back!

It’s a misconception that the NHS “provides training”.

Doctors pay for their degree, just like any other university degree. Their work in the NHS provides the NHS with medical staff so the training is a reciprocal arrangement that benefits both at the time.

They “owe” the NHS nothing when they have qualified. What they do owe is a massive student debt that has to be repaid.

If the training were provided free then to expect to work for the NHS for a specified number of years would be just, but not otherwise. If it was feted as an option I think many would take it, rather than the debt.

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Perhaps after all the training here, doctors should sign up to working for the NHS for ‘x’ number of years? That seems only fair - rather than taking their newly qualified skills abroad?

👋 thank you nanna8 it’s lovely to be back!

Surely that is only "fair" if everything was free - as it would have been for Lord Winston and a large proportion of the Gnetters who went to university. Many of them, considering the age demographic suggested by GN for this forum, will not have paid fees and, therefore, not have had the debt younger doctors do.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

PoliticsNerd

Whitewavemark2

I thought Lord Winston was a Labour peer?

He is. But he has supported some very right-wing view of late. Perhaps, like many older people, he is economically left and socially right?

More likely economically right and socially left when you think about it PoliticsNerd!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

Foundation training is "a two year programme acting as the bridge between undergraduate medical education and further training to become a general practitioner or specialist." So they are working and training and being paid for their work. I would guess many if us, if we have gone into hospital, have been treated by these doctors. It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

I think it's just spin to make us feel that junior doctors are ungrateful troublemakers.

So do I Maizie, sadly.

In 2008 the NHS paid out £900 million for negligence. In 2022 the amount had risen to £2.17 billion. The NHS seems an ever expanding drain on the taxpayer.
To even think of linking pay to efficiency is clearly a non starter.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

The young doctors desperately want posts and training in the NHS, but there are not enough jobs for them, because they are going to doctors from overseas. As I said upthread the UK is the only country in the world that does not give priority to the doctors it has trained.
I am surprised that people are not shocked by this.

Iam64

Allira, your Consultant had presumably worked in the nhs many years before going to Australia for a couple of years. My concern is our nhs losing many young doctors to Australia, Germany and more. A £50,000 welcome to pay off half your student debt, then a bigger salary and much better working conditions.

He came back because he didn't like working over there.
I've only met him since he returned.

I am shocked by that Mamie. I did not know that was the situation. I despair. But not as much as the newly qualified doctors I dare say. How utterly dispiriting for them.

PoliticsNerd

FriedGreenTomatoes2

But Lathyrus I found this on Googling?

Government Funding:
The UK government invests heavily in medical training, with estimates around £230,000 per doctor, but this includes salaries paid during foundation training and other costs.

Foundation training is "a two year programme acting as the bridge between undergraduate medical education and further training to become a general practitioner or specialist." So they are working and training and being paid for their work. I would guess many if us, if we have gone into hospital, have been treated by these doctors. It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an "investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

Surely in most jobs any during the training period is seen as an “investment”.

Factory and shop workers have a training period during which they are paid and the manufacture or retail organisation recognises this as an investment in their work force.
Sometimes it works and inevitably sometimes there is a fallout rate when both sides realise the investment has failed or the trainee moves to another firm.

I don’t understand what you think is ‘odd” about that.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I am shocked by that Mamie. I did not know that was the situation. I despair. But not as much as the newly qualified doctors I dare say. How utterly dispiriting for them.

It is and they also live with the uncertainty of having to pack up and move across the country at very short notice if a post does become available. That can be every six months.
There are nowhere near enough training posts and young doctors end up doing bank work rather than training as oncologists, neurosurgeons, anaesthetists etc., so you can't really blame them for going to Australia to pusue a career in the specialism they have worked towards for so long. It is a terrible waste of human resources.

ronib

Exactly how much do the strikers earn and how much do they want? Perhaps they should consider a change of career to finance?
The last time the junior doctors went on strike, my local hospital was working well without them. It was easier for the senior doctors to get on with the work…..

Starting salary after training, £38, 831

= £746 per week

=£18. 65 per hour.

That is before income tax, mandatory GMC Registration and professional indemnity costs. Foundation year doctors can have student debt as high as £100,000. They also have ongoing costs such as exam fees and courses. Surgical trainees, for example, may spend as much as £70,000 to achieve mandatory requirements for qualification

My cleaner earns £15 an hour (the local going rate) .Excellent as she is, she did not incur a huge student debt or spend 5 to 6 yrs training at university. Nor does she have to continue studying (while working) and paying high costs to take exams and further professional qualifications.

Employees who go on strike don't get paid at all. ( Incredibly, some people don't know that.)

There are threads on Mumsnet about this:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors

But doctors are free at some point in their careers to switch to working in private practice where salaries are high. Also it’s perfectly possible to combine both private and NHS practice. £18.65 per hour is for the first year of service and additional payments are given for overtime I believe.
The £100k debt doesn’t need to be repaid anytime soon- over 30 years or so when at some point the debt will be written off if not repaid.
What is most concerning is the lack of professionalism in junior doctors.

Surely in most jobs any [work?] during the training period is seen as an “investment”. (Lathyrus3)

What I said was:

It seems a little odd that the pay is seen as an investment". I can't think of any other job where pay would be seen in that way.

I was talking about pay for hours worked by qualified doctors, so have assumed that was your missing word. If you actually meant "training" I am very suprised. I don't know about you but if I did any in-work training I would still be paid for those hours as working hours. Of course any training would be seen as a future investment for both the organisation and the individual.

Sorry. I think we possibly agree but I’m finding it difficult to understand what you are actually saying.

Whether you agree or not that they deserve more money I still think it's immoral for them to go on strike when so many people are suffering and in need of medical interventions. These people are in a privileged position and because the present govt gave in to their demands so quickly they probably think they will do the same this time. With the NHS in the state it is they have the govt over a barrel.
I think that maybe writing off some of their uni debt in return for working in the UK for so many years post qualification would be a good idea and might well encourage more trainee docs which we desperately need.