Manchester Synagogue Attack

It's starting to make sense foxie, people are jumping to the conclusion that the marches are against Jews, when in actual fact, Jews also join these marches. So, would Jews march against Jews?
The march as you explained is against a Regime.
People are upset just now by the dreadful murders in Manchester.
People have been upset for months by the killings and cruelty in Gaza.
Yes Doodledog.

The phrase 'children of a lesser god' originated from Alfred Tennyson's poem 'Idylls of the King'. 1859-85.The line is:

"As if some lesser god had made the world, But had not force to shape it as he would?".
The poem reflects on an imperfect world as if created by a god with insufficient power.
Later used as a title for a play, then a film, about a woman dealing with deafness, which is how it became familiar.

And Doris , sad to say, is Lenin's (?) 'useful idiot.'

Are people like Doris not allowed to have their own opinions?

This is very off-topic, but those who voted Brexit and support Reform shout very loudly about being called "useful idiots". Why shouldn't Doris shout loudly to have her voice heard?

But Deborah (not real name either) will have agonised over it, talked about it with her family and friends, attended many informative meetings in interfaith situations, know everything about it she possibly could

and, like everybody posting here, is nobody's fool

Unless easybee you consider yourself a fool, which I certainly do not.

I should have added (and I think we've talked enough about Quakers, but needed to add just this for your information Quakers don't act alone, everything its talked over

unless and until someone decides the action they are taking is knowingly breaking the law. Then, it obviously has to be their individual decision

Foxie, that was a top post above, thank you.

Maremia

It's starting to make sense foxie, people are jumping to the conclusion that the marches are against Jews, when in actual fact, Jews also join these marches. So, would Jews march against Jews?
The march as you explained is against a Regime.
People are upset just now by the dreadful murders in Manchester.
People have been upset for months by the killings and cruelty in Gaza.
Yes Doodledog.

I don't think there would be many Jewish people shouting for their demise, as was seen by the hateful chants shown by a sky reporter over the weekend, these scum wanted the complete annihilation of Jews and the state of Israel. Said Jewish people should not be on their streets.
If you stick up for this bile, you're no better than them.

Doodledog I also believe we are at a turning point which is why I posted earlier in this thread that antisemitism, Islamophobia and all the other ways of discriminating against minorities in our society is the same side of the same coin. No one picked this up, perhaps because we prefer to take sides and be unpleasant to each other rather than discuss our thoughts rationally. Name calling takes up much less thought than writing a sensible response to a post we disagree with!
Mass migration is forcing countries to rethink their immigration and asylum policies, we are not unique in this and we are actually much less affected than many poorer countries that have taken many more refugees than the UK has. If we allow our response to this problem drive wedges between communities we will all suffer. This is why I said that the attack on the Synagogue is essentially an attack on all of us and tbh you only have to read this thread to see why.

I don't think the idea of "children of the lesser god" and "useful idiots" are the same. I don't think it was Lenin who first used the term either, which I assume is why you included a question mark. As democracy as a voting system and political ideology developed, there was always the danger that uninformed "useful idiots" would sway outcomes. It's why some people would argue that some form of dictatorship/autocracy would be better. It denies people any right to self-determination or to express an opinion.

The "useful idiot" concept is worth a thread on its own.

I'm still a bit confused about who you think are the "children of the lesser god" in this discussion.

See those folk you claim were shouting abuse on camera. See those folk. Those are the ones who should be identified and arrested, not the wee old ones sitting quietly on the ground. Yes, much easier to carry off an unresisting old duffer. Yes I get that.
Arrest the ones who are actually committing the hate crimes. Go after them.
And as for that dubious practice that happens so often on these GN pages 'Oh you say that therefore you must be as bad.'
Simply desist.

Maremia

See those folk you claim were shouting abuse on camera. See those folk. Those are the ones who should be identified and arrested, not the wee old ones sitting quietly on the ground. Yes, much easier to carry off an unresisting old duffer. Yes I get that.
Arrest the ones who are actually committing the hate crimes. Go after them.
And as for that dubious practice that happens so often on these GN pages 'Oh you say that therefore you must be as bad.'
Simply desist.

I don't understand your last sentence.

To be honest, I don't really understand any of it because I don't watch TV, so only ever see videos of marches if I go looking for them, which I don't. All video can be selective and serve certain audiences, so can't be considered reliable.

I believe that some people are shouting abuse on camera, but I agree with you that I don't understand why they're not arrested and charged (or are they?)

I still believe "Doris" has the right to express her opinion.

Quote Freya5 Mon 06-Oct-25 08:32:08
Maremia
It's starting to make sense foxie, people are jumping to the conclusion that the marches are against Jews, when in actual fact, Jews also join these marches. So, would Jews march against Jews?
The march as you explained is against a Regime.
People are upset just now by the dreadful murders in Manchester.
People have been upset for months by the killings and cruelty in Gaza.
Yes Doodledog.
I don't think there would be many Jewish people shouting for their demise, as was seen by the hateful chants shown by a sky reporter over the weekend, these scum wanted the complete annihilation of Jews and the state of Israel. Said Jewish people should not be on their streets.
If you stick up for this bile, you're no better than them.

It’s denial Freya , antisemitism must only be spoken of if Islamophobia is also spoken of.
Thoughts of thousands on a march is known, faiths of marchers is known.
Melanie Phillips has said the same happened in Germany and Europe which brought the Holocaust

The ‘wee old ones’ are not only a massive waste of the police’s time and resources being as they have to very carefully carry off any ‘old duffer’ who could easily walk into the police van but have been instructed by their PA leader to resist arrest by lying or sitting there.
They were appealed to by the police to not do it right now as police were needed around the synagogues.
These ‘duffers’ sitting there with smug expressions will think they’re modern day martyrs I bet.

Yes Anniebach it’s denial alright and can be seen on just about every page of this thread.

sunami
"O me! for why is all around us here / As if some lesser god had made the world, / But had not force to shape it as he would". Alfred Lord Tennyson , Idyll's of the King 1859, later used as the title of a play written by Mark Medoff. The expression is frequently used to describe people who are seen as "inferior" or "othered" I can't take credit for knowing this, it was all on the internet and I wanted to know it's origin!

sunami

foxie48

Nanna8 I think that's the point. Most of the people on these marches are not antisemitic, they support a two state solution with Palestinians and Israeli Jews being treated fairly. Some are rabidly antisemitic but I genuinely think most are not, with Jews joining other faiths, including Quakers showing their support.
I find it odd that people were prepared to accept that many of the people on the Unite march, organised by a known extremist who has been in prison on a number of occasions for violent crimes and membership of proscribed organisations, were there to reclaim the English flag not in support of racist thugs. Yet seem to think these marches which are attended by people of all faiths want to see Jews murdered. It's a crazy world. I think having some discussion of what motivates people can help us to understand the world a bit better but perhaps others prefer to live with their prejudices.

That's a fantastic post foxie48.

Ben Houchen called the people on the march with genuine beliefs "useful idiots" and claimed they had been hoodwinked by extremists. I wondered at the time whether he would claim the same for the "ordinary citizens" who went on the protests about immigration or the so-called Unite march in London.

People seem to be so partisan, but they can't see it.

With respect - I think you are both missing the point.

Palestine Action is a PROSCRIBED organisation now, decided by the government. With good cause after they broke into RAF Brize Norton.

Oreo

The ‘wee old ones’ are not only a massive waste of the police’s time and resources being as they have to very carefully carry off any ‘old duffer’ who could easily walk into the police van but have been instructed by their PA leader to resist arrest by lying or sitting there.
They were appealed to by the police to not do it right now as police were needed around the synagogues.
These ‘duffers’ sitting there with smug expressions will think they’re modern day martyrs I bet.

Yes I’m with Anniebach - why if we talk of anti semitism do we have to include Islamophobia? Other forms of bigotry are known.

Oreo could be describing an individual I know, who took a long expensive train journey so they could be arrested for holding a placard saying I support Palestine Action. Indeed they succeeded in being arrested. They insisted it was the only way to show support for Palestine despite the peaceful, legal march running parallel

Um, just wandering back in this meandering thread.

I think Tennyson took his ‘lesser god” thing from Zoastruan religious thought of the works consisting of a supreme being, demons and lesser gods/spiritual beings. Or maybe he thought if it for himself.

The concept of those who were children if a lesser god, whose creations are less than perfection has existed for many, many centuries, not as social discrimination as referenced here (I think).

sunami, sorry if it was not clear. 'simply desist' was to the practice of some GNs to conflate issues, and use that conflation to wrongly attempt to criticise other Posters.

What are those people breaking the law on marches hoping to achieve. There are peace talks happening now between Israel Hamas and the US.
On this tragic weekend for Jews surely they could have shown some respect and stayed at home.
I have no sympathy if any are repeat offenders and go to prison.

I don’t think anyone has expressed any concerns over the return of Faraj Al Shami, currently working abroad as a trauma surgeon. I am not at all easy with the idea of this radical figure living among us.
It’s time the UK faced up to its responsibilities to keep the Jewish community safe and one way would be to have much tighter controls in place.

I believe, but could be wrong Fried, but some folk don't think that this particular Proscription is justified. A bit like the way in which the Suffragettes were considered to be a terrorist organisation, back in the day. They weren't proscribed, because I'm not sure if that was a thing at that time.
Personally, I think the Police should be going after any hate marchers who have joined the march. Someone upthread saw TV footage of these actual proven anti-semites.
So, perhaps the security forces already have them in their sights.
Go for them. They are the haters.

Lathyrus3, I think that phrase 'Children of a lesser god' was used as a film title, which won awards some time ago, in which the main protagonist was, and was played by, a woman who was deaf'.

Spot on, Maremia. Get those who are fostering anti-semitism.

And wandering in another direction.

When I first listened to reports coming in on the radio of the attack, I was very struck that the BBC interviewer, discussing what had happened immediately followed up her report n the attack on a synagogue with the comment that mosques have also been attacked.

For a moment I thought she meant at the same time but then realised she meant previously. I thought it was an irrelevant comment, particularly since nothing was public at that point concerning the attacker.

And then I thought, you know if a mosque had been attacked in that way and somebody killed, the BBC would not have added ‘And synagogues have sometimes also been attacked”.
They rightly would not have considered it relevant to the suffering of the Moslem community to introduce what had happened to to Jews.Indeed they might have thought it insensitive.

Like all racism there is the overt and the covert, but also he unconscious and it is very hard for people to search and acknowledge their own bias.

Maremia

Lathyrus3, I think that phrase 'Children of a lesser god' was used as a film title, which won awards some time ago, in which the main protagonist was, and was played by, a woman who was deaf'.

Oh yes and it was television play some years before that.

But the original concept of lesser bid was part of Zoastrian theology hundreds of years before. And probably some other theology before Zoastrianism was created.

Wyllow3

Spot on, Maremia. Get those who are fostering anti-semitism.

And this is an abiding image from the Southport riots.
A Muslim offers food to a far right demonstrator. "let love prevail" were the words spoken.