What is the gulf between what the current party leaders believe themelves to be and the reality in your view?

That's lovely for them sunami they are both important issues for me. Her action on police numbers doesn't impact how I think about her views on those subjects and vice versa.

Oreo Sun 05-Oct-25 13:55:35
I think it’s hard for us to really know what Party leaders believe themselves to be isn’t it?

I agree with you Oreo to a large extent. But they each choose how they present themselves to the electorate e.g. in every interview and media appearance and we each form our views accordingly. Eg Farage down the pub with a pint in his hand shows he wants to be seen as a man of the people in my view. Badenoch this morning on TV said she's an engineer by background so she plans well and will only form policies that work because thats what engineers do.

The OP invitation was to share your views of how they see themselves by the way they present themselves to you- and your view of their real self as you have observed in their behaviours. As we are all different, with different political allegiances and values etc, views will differ widely of course.....thats what makes it interesting 😊

Then I will read the replies with interest😃

Galaxy

That's lovely for them sunami they are both important issues for me. Her action on police numbers doesn't impact how I think about her views on those subjects and vice versa.

Fair enough! Thank you for answering. I just don't think they would be at the top of most people's wish lists.

Her action on police numbers might not impact you directly, but comparisons with what she says now about law and order show what a hypocrite she is. I think being able to walk about the streets safely and knowing that crimes will be followed up are issues which concern most people. She was also in a position to have raised concerns about the Met, which was already giving reasons for some alarm, but she didn't.

I actually agree with you completely and I feel that people don't understand how important safety and fairness in day to day life is to people, I thought for example the mocking of Jenrick ( re fare dodging) was a mistake. But I can disagree with her on that issue and agree on the others if you see what I mean.

Galaxy

I actually agree with you completely and I feel that people don't understand how important safety and fairness in day to day life is to people, I thought for example the mocking of Jenrick ( re fare dodging) was a mistake. But I can disagree with her on that issue and agree on the others if you see what I mean.

Yes, I do see what you mean and it's good to have this discussion.

Interesting thread.

I think that asking one person to lead a party of elected representatives (representing very different constituencies) as well as steer a country (and in the UK a union of four countries) is a huge ask, and not very realistic, so the job description is fundamentally flawed.

In most successful management teams there are those who inspire, those who enable, those who drive, come up with ideas, see those ideas through and so on. One person can't do all of that unless s/he has multiple personalities, which might rule them out of the running by definition.

Another problem is that most MPs and cabinet members are ambitious people who pretty much all have big egos, so will probably be waiting for the opportunity to get a better job, and most will also believe that their vision would benefit the rest of us. All of that works against more usual definitions of loyalty, so a leader has to watch his or her back as well as leading from the front. 24/7 rolling news and constant surveillance on SM males it all even worse.

WRT the current leaders, I agree with lemonjam's analysis. I have worked with people who have similar traits to all of them. To take them in turn:

The Badenoch characters get to the top then wonder why they don't have people rooting for them and willing to have their back in a crisis, as they have experience of the ruthlessness that has accompanied the rise to the top. This self-fulfils, as without loyal colleagues the need to run things single handed makes things worse. Nobody chips in for a leaving card when they move on.

The Starmer characters are great in a crisis, but a bit plodding on a day to day level, having been brought up without enough headroom to encourage risk-taking. They believe in process, which can slow things down and be frustrating for people with time-critical ideas, but when they sign off a policy it usually works. Colleagues get irritated by them, but miss them when they leave and they are stuck with one of the others.

Davey characters are fun in their youth, but less so as they age. They organise compulsory 'team building' events, and are fans of exposing ice-breakers that everyone hates. They forget that 'wacky' PR only works with particular demographics and are usually half a step behind what is actually 'cool'. Nice enough people, they are rarely good leaders as they care too much about being seen as 'decent', so won't sack dead weight or make unpopular decisions. Someone has to organise a bigger room for their retirement or leaving party, as they are popular with colleagues.

Farage types see themselves as natural leaders, and rely on confidence to ingratiate themselves with those of similar backgrounds and intimidate those who are not. They talk the talk, and can be very convincing, but often repeat what someone else has just said in meetings as though they had thought of it first, take credit for others' work and always have an alibi when bodies are found. They don't have leaving parties, as they rarely bother to work their notice, but just disappear to a better job, often amongst rumours of having jumped before they were pushed.

sunami

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The Laffer curve, as proved by Gordon Brown. I think it was 2004, that he reached the limits of cigarette taxes, and they fell heavily the following year. So much so, that he never put their taxes up again.

This time round for labour is different. It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy. This is why things are disastrous so quickly.

Mind you Reeves will improve things next month won’t she with her delayed Budget?

What makes you think that Labour inherited a good economy? All the indications were that they didn't and not many serious economists would agree with you. It would be interesting to hear how you would defend your claim.

I don’t think you read FGT post correctly.
No claim to defend.

I think that asking one person to lead a party of elected representatives (representing very different constituencies) as well as steer a country (and in the UK a union of four countries) is a huge ask, and not very realistic, so the job description is fundamentally flawed.

Well, it is a tough job but every shop has to have a captain yo steer it safely. I'm not sure that Starmer is the right man for the job after all. It seemed as if he would be so much better than this, a steady hand at the helm but he has turned out to be a prevaricator and seems to have lost his bearings. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement but at least he's better than the alternative leader, although I do like Ed Davey.

LemonJam What is your take on the leader of the Greens who seems to think they stand a good chance at the next election?

Excuse typos! Sun is on the screen.

Ship and to steer

Well he has been called Captain Hindsight Allira and flip flop.

If I may answer about Zack Polanski as he’s now called, I think he’s trying hard to appeal to a young demographic especially with wanting to legalise all drugs including heroin and crack.

Not to mince my words, I think Polanski is a pillock.

His views on women's rights are appalling for a start.

In my work-based situation, he would be someone who is patronisingly scathing about older colleagues, uses buzz phrases a lot and makes a point of speaking at every meeting, nodding along with the people he sees as rising stars. He regularly reinvents wheels that were abandoned years before for being triangular or otherwise not fit for purpose.

Allira I do realise that a PM is supposed to do all the things I mentioned . I was simply offering the opinion that it is a lot to expect anyone (of any party) to do well.

Starmer believes he is a socialist.
I would beg to differ.

Oreo

Well he has been called Captain Hindsight Allira and flip flop.

If I may answer about Zack Polanski as he’s now called, I think he’s trying hard to appeal to a young demographic especially with wanting to legalise all drugs including heroin and crack.

Yes, that's him, I hear the name and keep thinking he's some pop star I don't know.

What? 😲

Not to mince my words, I think Polanski is a pillock.
Good choice of word Doodledog

The Greens have moved on a lot since the days of Caroline Lucas, all of it downhill.

Allira Sun 05-Oct-25 15:22:08
"LemonJam What is your take on the leader of the Greens who seems to think they stand a good chance at the next election?"

I must admit I haven't yet come to an informed view of how he regularly presents himself or how this compares to his performance as a leader in practice. But since he became leader on 23 September last month, I am noticing his appearance in the media much more that I've noticed Green leaders previously.

I understand at 18 he changed his birth surname, David Paulden, ( his family had adopted the Paulden surname name to evade the risk of antisemitism) to restore his familial name of Polanski, as it was important to him to find pride in his Jewish identity- that speaks to his values at a young age, a good thing.

He was elected Green Party leader last month, on a landslide. He's aims that the Green Party will REPLACE the Labour Party, very ambitious indeed. He is also critical of Farage and fascism.

He's recently released a weekly podcast called " Bold Politics with Zack Polanski" which tells me he is media savvy, and sees himself as bold. No doubt that will be his calling card as he goes forward. I read an article recently where he visited Clacton to speak to and listen to Nigel Farage's constituent residents to understand the reasons that formed their Reform voting views. That tells me he is astute and open to listening.

He could well continue to build momentum and become a real force to be reckoned with for the other 4 parties.

Doodledog Sun 05-Oct-25 14:54:36
"I think that asking one person to lead a party of elected representatives (representing very different constituencies) as well as steer a country (and in the UK a union of four countries) is a huge ask......"

I absolutely agree Doodlebug. Yet sadly identity politics is becoming increasingly the case globally, hence why this thread was of interest to me. It shouldn't be the case of course as the reality is it takes a government of representatives to deliver any party's polices. But every party or enterprise needs a leader and figurehead, it is for the electorate to remember they are solely that.

In that context, in ascending order, this would be my observations of which of the current leader's are most COLLEGIATE and COLLABORATIVE, despite their other strengths or failings, in order to command and lead a cohesive and effective government:
1)Polanski
2) Davey
3) Starmer
4) Badenoch ( but only when she sees the necessity to do so).
5) I don't think I've ever really seen any signs of Farage being collegiate and collaborative- but I stand to be corrected....

Allira I do realise that a PM is supposed to do all the things I mentioned grin. I was simply offering the opinion that it is a lot to expect anyone (of any party) to do well.

It's a tough job but he did volunteer!

DESCENDING order- sorry 🥱

Thanks LemonJam

Well, he must have some good points then.

LemonJam

My thoughts on 4 leaders who gain most media coverage, in no particular order:

1) Badenoch- back story privileged, largely private school educated, engineer. Sees herself as bold, strong and good planner. Reality- often comes across as arrogant, argumentative, poor listener, not a natural networker. Plans missing until recently. Uninspiring.

2) Starmer- back story working class, state educated, Human Rights lawyer. Sees himself- knows what he stands for, values driven, incisive, decisive, determined, has a plan. Reality- cautious, often changes his mind, others don't always feel they know what he stands for, ruthless, ambitious, determined, makes unforced errors, politically naive, only recently starting to make his values clearer to the electorate. Doesn't see it as his primary role to inspire, rather he seeks to govern responsibly.

3 Ed Davey- I don't really know much about his back story apart from he has a disabled child. Sees himself as values driven, media savvy and wants attention for Liberal Party, good at building presence in local communities. Reality- embarrassing Dad stunts in media, values driven, good at building presence in local communities. Jury swings as to level of inspiration.

4) Nigel Farage- back story privileged, privately educated, finance in the city. Sees himself as a man of the people yet also casts himself as an outsider, a risk taker, a truth teller, anti woke, the change agent with all the answers to current economic and cultural malaise ( as he sees it ). Reality Media savvy/master class level, scapegoat expert, agitator, maverick, career opportunist, excellent networker, ruthless, ambitious, seeks personal financial gain alongside public service, truth bender, opportunistic, thin skinned ( he can dish it out but not take it in return) contrarian. Inspires constant attention- his primary goal.

Absolutely brilliant analysis!

I hope Polanski doesn't cut through, I view him as a fairly charismatic con man, so I suspect he might. The stories around his behaviour whilst a hypnotherapist ring all sorts of alarm bells.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Erm sunami I actually said “ It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy.”

Glad you mentioned that FGT2.
I thought I’d misread your post when sunami said that.

Mollygo

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Erm sunami I actually said “ It's the first time they haven't inherited a good economy.”

Glad you mentioned that FGT2.
I thought I’d misread your post when sunami said that.

Sorreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :-(

Allira

^Allira I do realise that a PM is supposed to do all the things I mentioned grin. I was simply offering the opinion that it is a lot to expect anyone (of any party) to do well.^

It's a tough job but he did volunteer!

Yes, they all do. I didn't single out Starmer at all.

It's an interesting thought about expectations on one person but I suppose that is what the cabinet is for.

Galaxy

It's an interesting thought about expectations on one person but I suppose that is what the cabinet is for.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. A good manager picks her/his team to make sure that all the necessary bases are covered. Even then, a lot comes down to how well the management team is managed, IYSWIM. That's why I tried to fit the leaders into how I think they would have fitted into workplace teams I have known. Obviously there was a lot of guesswork, but I found it interesting, even if no-one else did