Maccabi Tel Aviv football club banned

Lathyrus3

Well yes the Government would stick its oar in if the reason for the ban was that a mass of pro Semitic protesters were intending to gather in order to hurl racist abuse at the team and carry out violent acts. If there had been public calls for violence without mercy from prominent Jewish leaders.

It would be the reverse of the case before us and the principle would be the same. The Government could not allow a racist mob to dictate what happens on our streets because they fear the violence that the mob threatens.

So you are saying it is ok, however, ok for supporters who use racist chants against Muslims, absolutely vile racist chants, to be allowed to attend a game?
And equally ok for the government to intervene to lift a ban?
Am not saying pro Palestinian groups wouldn’t want to stir the pot and am not taking their side at all. But perhaps if I clarify this by saying these anti semitic supporters are Muslims so Yaxley Lennon and his thugs were ready to give them a kicking.
Would you suppose a ban and expect the government to stay out of it?

Sorry typing on my phone so is a bit weird.
But you get my drift.

I do hate it when people try to justify their own arguments but putting false words into other people’s mouths.

If you car3 to read what I actually sad you will see that I said that the government cannot allow large groups of people to dictate what happens on our streets through the threat of violence and the fear that the violence is beyond control.

This principle applies to anyone and everyone regardless of their ethnicity or beliefs.

Babs03

I think the pro Palestinian protestors would very quickly be joined not only with Maccabi fans but Yaxley Lennon and his thugs, all looking for a good kicking, promising to show up to support the Maccabi fans, if the game went ahead, so why Starmer and co were still eager to let the fans attend is beyond me.
There would have been multiple injuries - including of police officers - and even possible fatalities. Am not blaming any side, they would all kick off but am blaming the government for not putting the safety of the public and the police above their own political careers, which would have been tarnished with accusations of anti semitism if they had supported the ban.

Babs3, I agree with all of this.
Very sad that their political careers would have been tarnished with accusations of anti semitism if they had accepted the safety assessment by the competent authorities without query.But alas, I think they would have been.

Why anyone's career should be tarnished by unfounded accusations, I don't understand.But this government on this issue, it's all too likely to happen. So I understand their intervention although I wish they didn't feel they had to.

The elephant in the room here is that fans who use vile Islamophobic chants and are known to be violent were championed by the government in order not to be seen as antisemitic.
So we all know how partial the government us and how they cannot be relied upon to make the right call when it comes to racism against Muslims, in fact they will err on the side of those who are rampantly Islamophobic. But of course the pro Palestine supporters are the smoke screen to make this all look ok. But it isn’t.

And this is how Muslims are feeling right now. Perhaps we could take a moment to reflect upon how this looks to them because this year Islamophobic attacks on Muslims have increased every bit as much as attacks on Jewish communities.
So why should they, if they attended the Aston Villa game, have had to listen ti such chants. Tbh I doubt they would even go, Muslims don’t tend to go to football matches the risks of attacks are too high.

But it is to protect Muslims as much as any other group that the Government cannot allow any group to dictate what happens on the streets because that group threatens violence that cannot be controlled.

Can’t you see that to give in to the demands of any groups because of the violence they threaten opens the door to fear for everyone?

Lathyrus3

But it is to protect Muslims as much as any other group that the Government cannot allow any group to dictate what happens on the streets because that group threatens violence that cannot be controlled.

Can’t you see that to give in to the demands of any groups because of the violence they threaten opens the door to fear for everyone?

But the government were trying to reverse the ban until this was announced -
“Israeli football team Maccabi Tel Aviv has said it will turn down any tickets offered to its fans for a match in the United Kingdom, even if an earlier decision by local officials to bar the team’s followers from attending is reversed.”
So how were the government’s actions protecting Muslims, when in fact they seemed happy to allow fans using Islamophobic chants to attend the game?
And believe me those chants are beyond vile.
I mean can you imagine the government insisting fans who used awful antisemitic chants should attend a match?
I can’t, and I would be horrified if they did.

I’m really sorry that you can’t see past your personal involvement to the dangers of allowing any group threaten public disorder and violence in order to achieve their own aims.

Well having skin in the game changes things. Though I am not Muslim. I do know many who are, some very close to me.
The thing is I agree that any pro Palestinian supporters intent upon violence should be kept away from a game like this. Fair enough. And am sure the police will act accordingly. But the Maccabi fabs - not all I imagine but enough - are not the victims here, they are also intent upon violence as has been proved time and again. Yet they have been championed by the government.
There is no one side bad and one side good here. They are both bad. It is just being called antisemitism and that I suppose is very much that. The period at the end of the sentence. The ‘no more debate necessary’.

Lathyrus3

I do hate it when people try to justify their own arguments but putting false words into other people’s mouths.

If you car3 to read what I actually sad you will see that I said that the government cannot allow large groups of people to dictate what happens on our streets through the threat of violence and the fear that the violence is beyond control.

This principle applies to anyone and everyone regardless of their ethnicity or beliefs.

It wasn't a "large group of people" who were dictating. It was West Midlands Police and the safety organisation who made a responsible decision based on facts.

Lathyrus3

But it is to protect Muslims as much as any other group that the Government cannot allow any group to dictate what happens on the streets because that group threatens violence that cannot be controlled.

Can’t you see that to give in to the demands of any groups because of the violence they threaten opens the door to fear for everyone?

You’ve done your best to get that message through but Babs03 just doesn’t seem to get it.🤷🏼‍♀️
In any case the maccabi TA fans aren’t coming and so we will see how the pro Palestinian crowds act at the Villa ground.In my opinion they will act badly.

Lathyrus3

I’m really sorry that you can’t see past your personal involvement to the dangers of allowing any group threaten public disorder and violence in order to achieve their own aims.

I find that very patronising, frankly. A way of putting down someone making a political/social point.

We all have the ability to transcend who our relatives or friends are and make a thoughtful political point.

We may use their experiences as an example, surely we all do - but you are suggesting that Babs is less than able to make a valid point. If you said that to someone who had Jewish connections - now that would go down well, wouldnt it?

MayBee70

Babs03

I think the pro Palestinian protestors would very quickly be joined not only with Maccabi fans but Yaxley Lennon and his thugs, all looking for a good kicking, promising to show up to support the Maccabi fans, if the game went ahead, so why Starmer and co were still eager to let the fans attend is beyond me.
There would have been multiple injuries - including of police officers - and even possible fatalities. Am not blaming any side, they would all kick off but am blaming the government for not putting the safety of the public and the police above their own political careers, which would have been tarnished with accusations of anti semitism if they had supported the ban.

Especially as Yaxley Lennon has recently been invited to give a talk in Israel. I mean, what was that all about and who is ready to condone it? It surely proves that there are extreme right wingers in Israel.

There have always been Israeli flags at right wing marches in the UK.

The West Midlands police listened to SAG ( were they Muslim?)
Birmingham Council and what they called community concerns.Then they folded!
The PM and other leaders of political parties condemned the fact that the police were saying they couldn’t police it. Absolutely pathetic.

Wyllow3

Lathyrus3

I’m really sorry that you can’t see past your personal involvement to the dangers of allowing any group threaten public disorder and violence in order to achieve their own aims.

I find that very patronising, frankly. A way of putting down someone making a political/social point.

We all have the ability to transcend who our relatives or friends are and make a thoughtful political point.

We may use their experiences as an example, surely we all do - but you are suggesting that Babs is less than able to make a valid point. If you said that to someone who had Jewish connections - now that would go down well, wouldnt it?

Hollow laugh Wyllow03 as a Jewish person I’ve been told that in various rude ways on many threads about Gaza.

growstuff

MayBee70

Babs03

I think the pro Palestinian protestors would very quickly be joined not only with Maccabi fans but Yaxley Lennon and his thugs, all looking for a good kicking, promising to show up to support the Maccabi fans, if the game went ahead, so why Starmer and co were still eager to let the fans attend is beyond me.
There would have been multiple injuries - including of police officers - and even possible fatalities. Am not blaming any side, they would all kick off but am blaming the government for not putting the safety of the public and the police above their own political careers, which would have been tarnished with accusations of anti semitism if they had supported the ban.

Especially as Yaxley Lennon has recently been invited to give a talk in Israel. I mean, what was that all about and who is ready to condone it? It surely proves that there are extreme right wingers in Israel.

There have always been Israeli flags at right wing marches in the UK.

Yes there are, also some extreme right wingers in just about every country in the world. The point proves nothing.

@Oreo

“You’ve done your best to get that message through but Babs03 just doesn’t seem to get it”

You mean I refuse to say that Lathyrus3 is right. I could equally say that neither you or Lathyrus3 get it.
To be honest I didn’t think you two were a team.

My point Oreo is that just because you are Jewish or Babs has Muslim relations doesn't mean either of you will automatically hold a predictable POV.

Lathyrus was suggesting that being one religion or another blinds you to being able to make valid points.

Obviously your being Jewish informs your POV but not every Jewish person thinks the same as you.

Oreo

growstuff

MayBee70

Babs03

I think the pro Palestinian protestors would very quickly be joined not only with Maccabi fans but Yaxley Lennon and his thugs, all looking for a good kicking, promising to show up to support the Maccabi fans, if the game went ahead, so why Starmer and co were still eager to let the fans attend is beyond me.
There would have been multiple injuries - including of police officers - and even possible fatalities. Am not blaming any side, they would all kick off but am blaming the government for not putting the safety of the public and the police above their own political careers, which would have been tarnished with accusations of anti semitism if they had supported the ban.

Especially as Yaxley Lennon has recently been invited to give a talk in Israel. I mean, what was that all about and who is ready to condone it? It surely proves that there are extreme right wingers in Israel.

There have always been Israeli flags at right wing marches in the UK.

Yes there are, also some extreme right wingers in just about every country in the world. The point proves nothing.

Well, it must prove something, although I don't know what.

The reason I mentioned it is because connections between Israel and right wingers such as Yaxley Lennon are nothing new.

I hadn’t realised that. Netanyahu is controlled by the right wingers in his government though, or so I believe (happy to be corrected). But any involvement with Yaxley Lennon is of concern especially as his followers might get involved in any protests.

I really think that points are getting lost on here.
Babs03 Why do you think me and Lathyrus are a team? Is that a tiny clique? We just agree on something is all.
Wyllow03 I agree with you totally that being Jewish or Muslim doesn’t make points any more valid ( it means our experience and world view inform our thoughts) but I also agree with Lathyrus that being too close to a subject can sometimes blind you.I do my best to not allow it to.

Oreo

I really think that points are getting lost on here.
Babs03 Why do you think me and Lathyrus are a team? Is that a tiny clique? We just agree on something is all.
Wyllow03 I agree with you totally that being Jewish or Muslim doesn’t make points any more valid ( it means our experience and world view inform our thoughts) but I also agree with Lathyrus that being too close to a subject can sometimes blind you.I do my best to not allow it to.

It’s increasingly difficult to discuss anything connected to Israel/Palestine on this forum without distortions or misunderstandings.
When did Lathryus and Oreo become a team? They’ll be a clique by the time I post this.
People are comfortable mentioning family and friends who are Muslim but don’t seem able to extend that acceptance to posters who are Jewish or have Jewish friends, or family. I have both fwiw.

Thank you for your understanding Iam64 I think that sometimes a step back for a moment of calm works wonders.

MayBee70

I hadn’t realised that. Netanyahu is controlled by the right wingers in his government though, or so I believe (happy to be corrected). But any involvement with Yaxley Lennon is of concern especially as his followers might get involved in any protests.

I picked up from social media (from some Israeli posters themselves) that they were becoming increasingly concerned by Yaxley Lennon's involvement in this issue. It would appear to be one of the reasons Maccabi football team decided to decline the tickets anyway.

They didn't want to be involved with Yaxley Lennon's mob and could foresee that the situation outside the ground could turn very nasty. They didn't want their fans to be connected to the same labels.

If YL mobilised his henchman (from his sun recliner in the Canaries - or wherever), it's likely that anti-racist counter demonstrators would turn up in addition to pro-Palestine supporters. It's likely there would be destruction to property and injuries to the public, police and horses.

I suspect there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on and I respect Maccabi Tel Aviv for making an adult, sensible decision.