Breaking Peace in the Middle East? Continued thread.

Quote MayBee70 Tue 21-Oct-25 13:20:20
Everything should be judged on what is happening now. No one denies that the holocaust was a terrible event that should never be repeated but that shouldn’t change the way that we look at current situations.

A step away from denial surely? “Don’t mention the war”, Faulty Towers ?

Very sorry for my error. Correction: Palestinians are victims of victims.

The leader of Israel's security (likened to our MI5) has said Hamas will never be defeated unless Israel defeat the ideology.
She believes the way to do this is with the two state solution giving new horizons for both Israelis and Palestinians.

But it is never an excuse for victims, in any situation, to victimise others.

CariadAgain

Maremia

And that is how different folk and different faiths can actually come together.

That's what I think Maremia - I say to people "You can be any religion you please or none - and that's up to you/I'm not bothered basically - unless you push it on other people or it's Black Magic" (which I do draw the line at and am not a happy bunny when I've spotted signs of it going on in the vicinity).

So the only times I've been concerned have been when I was in an evangelical Christian church way back and the man speaking said "Anyone can speak - as long as they're a man". Two minutes later everyone had witnessed me very publicly getting up and walking firmly out the door of the chapel - never to reappear and I would have still done so even if I'd been a man myself.
Back in my last city I was told how to recognise some signs of Black Magic - which would mysteriously have disappeared a couple of minutes after I'd seen them.

Apart from that - be what you please imo...and I only missed out on going to the Greek Orthodox service we'd been invited to as well in Birmingham because I took the precaution of looking up how long their services went on for - !!!!!! Think it was 8 hours or something....and even my curiosity wasn't enough to cover that....

So - yep....religious tolerance....

Must have been more than a little amusing to the boyfriend I was on holiday with when I took us both into Catholic churches for a look - and even more amusing when I found I knew exactly what everything was and busily told him (you don't learn that when you've been brought up by an Anglican and an agnostic - and I couldnt have told you how I knew it).

Cariad, religious tolerance is a positive thing, very different from apathy.

I understand why you walked out of the evangelical Protestant service. Protestant evangelicals seem to be actually UNABLE to see good in any other religion or sect but their own. You carry your religious tolerance in a light- hearted style, which is what is needed .

There is a deep-seated cultural difference between Protestantism and eastern religions including Islam. I was reared as a liberal Protestant but there are aspects of Islam I like better.
Do you think women are better than men at religious tolerance?

Defeating the ideology of Hamas, which as most people could be aware, is as unacceptable to many Moslem traditions, as it is to non Moslems, would reduce the following.
But, how to do that?
Giving hope, of a decent future, of safety, of trust is a way.
At the moment not sure who could pull this off.

That's an interesting question Caleo.

Maremia

Defeating the ideology of Hamas, which as most people could be aware, is as unacceptable to many Moslem traditions, as it is to non Moslems, would reduce the following.
But, how to do that?
Giving hope, of a decent future, of safety, of trust is a way.
At the moment not sure who could pull this off.

Islam is a great religion. Allah is a great and good deity.
Muhammad was a man of his time. For centuries Christians were unable to interpret The Bible historically. Now, many can do so. I hope Muslims will be able to read the Koran historically and sort out which verses no longer apply in 2025.

Shin bet have said that Hamas will never be defeated and conflict will continue for many years unless the ideology is defeated.
Hamas has suffered heavy defeats and is tired of fighting. Trying to regroup under a different name. Do they want peace but still have control in Gaza?

Maremia

But it is never an excuse for victims, in any situation, to victimise others.

That is what is so very shocking to me.

Oh, I think we are well in need here of lessons from history, and will tell it as a Lived Story

I've said this on previous threads - my Dad fought alongside Jews against in the Cable Street fight in the 1930's. During and after the war he and my Mum were both active in my childhood town arranging and welcoming Jewish refugees and combating the anti-semitism that arose against settlers.

I was brought up with strong images of the horrors of the holocaust - "never, ever, again".

I was aware of the history of Balfour promising Jewish people a homeland in 1917 in return for an alliance that suited the UK in WW1.

I was aware of both Jewish and Arab terror groups in the 1930's against the British "Protectorate".

But I believed at the time that the holocaust was so ghastly, it was regrettable that a Palestinian State was not declared - but understandable that Jewish people would want security of a patch of land that was Theirs" for the fist time in Modern History.

Then the Israeli Regimes in power in their "wisdom" started to encroach on Arab lands

The stated belief in Netanyahu's Likud party is clear - they believe that Israel should be "From the river, to the Sea". Yes: the party was formed as early as 1973

Yet people who have posted on Gaza threads here criticise those who oppose the current Israeli regime by shouting "from the river to the sea despite this very well known aim of the Likud Party

An idealist, I watched in horror as those whose who had gone through the horrors of the holocaust started their plan of extending to the whole of what was Palestine through land grabbing and violence.

Many citizens of Israel were against this, of course, and regarded Arab citizens in Israel as equals. But the far right prevailed over time.

As more and more Jewish people moved to Israel, overcrowding and new arrivals pushed the need for land and propaganda, already existing but on a small scale.

Some Israelis started doing to the Palestinians what had happened to Jewish people in Europe - propaganda that painted Arabs as "lesser".

*In world terms, Israel was always supported by the USA because of its tactical position in the Middle East*:

supported both on terms of "aid" and weapons on an absolutely massive scale. Germany had supported Israel from the start because they had led the appalling oppression of the Jewish peoples.

The Israeli regimes could not have down what they did, without this massive support.

Look at the situation now. The West Bank is at the point where it looks inevitable that Israel will de facto take over the whole area, and Netanyahu's regime are

simply carrying out what they promised to do in 1973

And are prepared to bomb and starve Gaza by into death and starvation, no clean water, often no access to medical care"

I believe the rise in anti-Semitism that we see is because of Netanyahu - and even more extreme cabinet members - are acting as they do.

Hoping back to the start of my post, there has always been anti semitism as my father knew all too well

We have to ask

Who and what has made it worse

I just hope that the Israeli voters are able to oust him next year, and bring in someone with a better plan.

Earlier in the day, there was an online BBC in depth article about Hamas, and giving up power. Covered quite a few perspectives that have been raised in our Threads.

The Netanyahu government has caused a rise in antisemitism. It has made many hostile to Israel itself rather than just their government.

Previously covert anti-Semitics have been more open about their bias as they feel it's justified by the treatment of the Palestinians.
I hope for the sake of Israel that Netanyahu is voted out next October.

Jews are the cause of a rise in antisemitism , what was the cause of its birth ? the Crucifixion ?

MayBee70

Everything should be judged on what is happening now. No one denies that the holocaust was a terrible event that should never be repeated but that shouldn’t change the way that we look at current situations.

Quite! No point in harking back into history imo.

Some people do - and this isn't the only context I've seen it happening in. Now I live in Wales - I've obviously been told about the "Welsh Not" (which was a thing I was totally unaware of previously) and that meant teachers in schools here decades back putting a "Welsh Not" sign round pupils necks if they caught them speaking in Welsh. Move forward some decades and a woman a bit older than me told me it happened to her mother - and I agreed she should not have been treated that way. But, in the next breath, she made an absolute habit of turning any communal conversation into Welsh - though I asked her not to and pointed out I couldnt then understand it and reminded her they were communal conversations (not private ones). But nope - she was absolutely determined to punish me for the "sins" of a generation I had nothing to do with taking actions I had nothing to do with. I was the nearest "whipping boy" to hand for her to take it out on - and so she got out her verbal whip and went for me!!!!!! She simply couldnt (or wouldnt) see that she was doing exactly the same thing she'd just been condemning.

Taking out the "sins" or "mistakes" of peoples forefathers/ancestors on an innocent person should never happen - but it's surprising how many people will "take something out" on a stranger from a subsequent generation that had nothing to do with it. I've seen my mother doing similar (ie refusing to talk with a German friend in my generation when she was there at the same time as my friend).

What is the point of dredging up a past generations problems and taking them out on a current generation? Quite - there isnt.

Caleo - in answer to your question = I have absolutely no idea if one sex is better at religious tolerance than the other. I just think some people (give them their due - probably most people) are, by and large, pretty good at religious tolerance from what I see in this country. Though that may depend on what their religious "background" is so to say - and I tend to assume most people come from a secular and/or Christian background - and by and large we are and just think "Each to their own - that's up to them".

When in Rome !

Absolutely not - if you're referring to that exclusion from conversations Anniebach.

Good manners and consideration dictate that - where a conversation is clearly communal - then everyone in it must obviously understand it and not be deliberately excluded (which was something she kept doing). The woman concerned was obviously making a habit of this - at least for a while - as I caught her talking at one person (ie not even a communal conversation - just her and him) and she was yelling something in Welsh at him and he was even apologising for not speaking it and she did hear him - but then yelled something else in Welsh at him. Cue for he was a Council workman - who needed not to be set-up for getting angry with her - so she could put in a complaint against him and try and get him unfairly dismissed. I told her VERY firmly to leave him alone and stop harassing him - because it was obvious what she was up to and he thanked me as she stormed-off (having had to give up on trying to make him be nasty back to her). We both knew what she was trying to do - so he was thanking me for saving his job.

Choosing to speak Welsh in Wales ? How dare anyone do that !

Oh - a squirrel.

Could now be British Boots going in. Just caught a headline.

Maremia

Could now be British Boots going in. Just caught a headline.

Oh crikey! Which newspaper was that in?

....and like we've got such a huge army sitting around kicking its heels with nothing to do - sheesh...

Maremia

Could now be British Boots going in. Just caught a headline.

The so called British Boots are already in the region along with other countries armed forces.

They are just north of Gaza at the moment as a Task Force working out a strategy for peace keeping.

It has been reported by the BBC, ITV and other news outlets

Thank goodness something is being done.

Will they be under the blue helmets? I would like to think so.

The more one looks at the situation = the more I think the indoctrination in Jewish schools there must be extremely powerful stuff to convince most of them that someone else's country is theirs. Thank goodness for the ones that can see through it - and refuse to go into the IDF and, on the other hand, go out and try to protect the settlers harvesting their olives.

My mind just absolutely boggles at the way they're acting - 76 years of all this land theft/murder/etc going on (that's not counting from the Balfour Declaration).