Pro Palestinian crowds shrieking and yelling at the Aston Villa Park Stadium

The demonstrations ended up being mostly peaceful. I wonder if it would have been so peaceful if those Maccabi fans had been allowed to come. I think it could have been mayhem as they are violent and disruptive.

I think the correct decision was made.

Ramblingrose22

I've struggled to "unravel" some of this. I don't claim to have any special expertise.

I doubt if the Israeli football team wanted to do anything more than play football on Wednesday night. The team are not responsible for the behaviour of their fans or for the policies of the Israeli Government. Given that the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were not allowed to attend the match, what were the protests really about?

I have seen people (including Jewish people) being accused of anti-semitism just because they disagree with the Israeli Government or what the IDF have been doing in Gaza. This is another sort of conflation because of the inflammatory and polarising nature of any discussions about the war in Gaza.

There are plenty of Israelis who also disagree with their Government and the way the war in Gaza has been conducted and who sympathise with the plight of the Gazans who have been governed by a bunch of terrorists for so long and so many of whom have lost their homes. Does that make such Israelis anti-semitic too?

However, those who support the Palestinians and use the expression "From the River to the Sea", despite claims that the words mean something else, are widely regarded as anti-Israel. I have seen that these words are generally used by those supporting Hamas and others who wish to see the destruction of Israel once and for all. For all we know, the majority of Palestinians just want their own homeland as a separate country (i.e. a two-state solution) without the destruction of Israel.

I wonder what proportion of "pro-Palestinian" protesters want the destruction of Israel and a one-state solution.

Ramblingrose

Netaanjahu's Likud Party was formed in 1973 and part of their written key policy

was that Israel should be from the River to the Sea

Basically, the extremes of both sides - and there are many far more extreme than Netanyahu

are saying "From the River to the Sea"

Its really important to get this point across for obvious reasons - as long as that phrase is only attributed to supporters of Palestinians

-we are forgetting that many Jewish people - of course, by not means at all by anyones measure

Are not only requesting the same thing

but are taking it as we write.

AGAA4

The demonstrations ended up being mostly peaceful. I wonder if it would have been so peaceful if those Maccabi fans had been allowed to come. I think it could have been mayhem as they are violent and disruptive.

This was the sole criteria when the Birmingham police force made their decision, it was not antisemitic or about pro Palestine protesters, but in response to a hard core of Maccabi fans who had already caused mayhem in other parts of Europe, and indeed in Israel as well.
Am just wondering what Starmer and Nandy are feeling now after such knee jerk reactions?
And after attempting to undermine the police.

They have both gone down in my estimation Babs03.

They went up in my estimation.
This is all very fishy, that MiddleEast Eye is somehow more in the know than MI5, or our government or police.
So called links to the IDF probably means some of the fans have served their military time as they are required to do in Israel.
Dutch Muslims were charged and sentenced for their brutality towards Israeli fans in Amsterdam.
There were Tel Aviv fans who weren’t blameless as in all football fan bases but overall it was the over reaction from Amsterdam Muslims who cornered anyone they thought was a Jew.
The Mayor of Amsterdam and police apologised for this.

Onlymedea

Why is an Israeli team in the Europa League? They aren't a european team.

Because quite a long time ago the Arab league wouldn’t allow Israel to carry on playing , many Muslim countries around Israel voted to not allow them to stay in their league.I don’t know exactly when this was, I haven’t looked it up, but around 50 years ago maybe?So they switched to the Europa League.

Oreo didn't you say that politics had no place in football and yet you believe it was right that Starmer and Nandy, both politicians involved themselves in this? Forgive me if it wasn't you.

Oreo

They went up in my estimation.
This is all very fishy, that MiddleEast Eye is somehow more in the know than MI5, or our government or police.
So called links to the IDF probably means some of the fans have served their military time as they are required to do in Israel.
Dutch Muslims were charged and sentenced for their brutality towards Israeli fans in Amsterdam.
There were Tel Aviv fans who weren’t blameless as in all football fan bases but overall it was the over reaction from Amsterdam Muslims who cornered anyone they thought was a Jew.
The Mayor of Amsterdam and police apologised for this.

The Mayor of Amsterdam also apologised for getting it very wrong by blaming Amsterdam Muslims. Stop trying to rewrite history.

What about Eintracht Frankfurt Oreo?

It isn’t right for dislike of Israelis that police or certain ethnic communities dictate who comes into our country for sporting purposes, I can’t be any clearer than that.
Starmer and Nandy had to involve themselves as Israelis have every right to visit our country they aren’t banned by us.
If Starmer and Nandy had themselves interfered to prevent the fans or the team coming to the UK then that would have been politics interfering with sport.

Oreo

They went up in my estimation.
This is all very fishy, that MiddleEast Eye is somehow more in the know than MI5, or our government or police.
So called links to the IDF probably means some of the fans have served their military time as they are required to do in Israel.
Dutch Muslims were charged and sentenced for their brutality towards Israeli fans in Amsterdam.
There were Tel Aviv fans who weren’t blameless as in all football fan bases but overall it was the over reaction from Amsterdam Muslims who cornered anyone they thought was a Jew.
The Mayor of Amsterdam and police apologised for this.

This is where I just burst out laughing at the thought of MI5 being apparently so competent - from own personal experience decades back of one of them choosing me at a peace demonstration to try and pump for information. Funnily enough he'd vanished very quickly when I sussed him and made my excuses to find somebody suitable to deal with him - cue for the "somebody suitable" I'd found saying "Didn't you know? They do some of their training at the University...." ....and there was me anticipating us giving him the 3rd degree in return......

Yep....very competent sometimes - not....

So I'm quite prepared to believe that someone else (in this case Middle East Eye) might know better than them....if the one I came across all those years back was a similar (lack of) competency level....

Oreo

They went up in my estimation.
This is all very fishy, that MiddleEast Eye is somehow more in the know than MI5, or our government or police.
So called links to the IDF probably means some of the fans have served their military time as they are required to do in Israel.
Dutch Muslims were charged and sentenced for their brutality towards Israeli fans in Amsterdam.
There were Tel Aviv fans who weren’t blameless as in all football fan bases but overall it was the over reaction from Amsterdam Muslims who cornered anyone they thought was a Jew.
The Mayor of Amsterdam and police apologised for this.

Well Starmer and Nandy apologised but they didn’t have the full picture.
I am not an apologist for anyone who attacked Jewish people in Amsterdam, that is insupportable, but videos of the behaviour of Maccabi hooligans on that occasion coming out with vile anti Arab chants as well as attacking taxis and burning Palestinian flags and similar reports of their hooliganism from other European countries as well as Israel, does not lead me to believe that these hooligans need any kind of apology. Least of all from our own PM.
Well done the Brummie police for making that statement.

There was an element of wrongdoing by some Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam I already said that some weren’t blameless but overall it was the Dutch Muslims who were worse, they weren’t Ajax football fans and in their own words they said they were ‘Jew hunting’ and that’s what they set out to do and did, which is completely different to opposing teams fighting.
Don’t you rewrite history growstuff.

Rambling anecdotes about MI5 CariadAgain
They’ve managed to foil very many extremist attacks in the UK
So forgive me for scepticism about your scenario.

I think I'll go with the 'history' as told by the foreign police forces who had to deal with those Tel Aviv, and who warned the UK police about the problems they caused.

I can’t reference other posts on this phone but I admit I hadn’t thought about Israeli military service and whether the placard calling the footballers killers would be true.

Google gives me some mixed answers and paywalls in answer to the question are footballers exempt.

So the assumption is that if they have done compulsory military service, they are killers, regardless of whether they have killed anyone or not?

Oreo

There was an element of wrongdoing by some Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam I already said that some weren’t blameless but overall it was the Dutch Muslims who were worse, they weren’t Ajax football fans and in their own words they said they were ‘Jew hunting’ and that’s what they set out to do and did, which is completely different to opposing teams fighting.
Don’t you rewrite history growstuff.

I haven't - and don't take too kindly to people trying to be bullies.

Oreo

Politics has no place in sport.

This 👍

growstuff

Lathyrus3

I was pondering the banner that said “Keep killers out of football”

As far as I know, none of the Israeli football team have killed anyone.
Presumably then the poster has equated the Israeli government and army actions with the football players who have killed no one, just because they are both Jewish .

Would you say that was antisemitism?

Not quite! They are both Israeli.

So do you blame all Germans for the actions of Hitler and his Nazis?

bmacca

I’m a Villa fan. I was at last night’s game. It was a great result for Villa doing Maccabi Tel Aviv 2-0. Great result for the locals from Aston & the surrounding area who came out to say the football drenched in apartheid & genocide isn't welcome in Birmingham or anywhere else.

There were around 200 pro Palestine protesters and around 70/80 pro Israel protesters. The pro Palestine group were grouped in the park/playground area which is across the street from Villa Park. They did not prevent any Villa fans getting into the ground. There was one incident where police tried to close a gate on some Villa fans but once it was clear they were fans with tickets and not protesters, this was quickly resolved.

The pro Israel group had sent trucks with electronic messages on to circle the ground. This group congregated on the opposite side of the ground but wanted to march along two roads to the playground area. They did this under a police escort. The police stopped them when they reached the start of the playground area where there is a basketball court. This was not a “Jew cage” and they were not locked in.

We saw people being arrested from both sets of protesters. A couple of arrests also appeared to be teenagers who were filming on TikTok and refused to move when told to by the police.

There were a number of Maccabi supporters in seats inside the ground. They displayed scarves & T-shirts showing their support. They were not subjected to any abuse from Villa fans, apart from a bit of banter about being Londoners.

I am dismayed at some of the racist overtones to the comments about Birmingham. Birmingham is a lively, diverse and welcoming city

Thanks bmacca for your sensible post from someone who was actually there.

Oreo

Rambling anecdotes about MI5 CariadAgain
They’ve managed to foil very many extremist attacks in the UK
So forgive me for scepticism about your scenario.

Yes, they are really odd anecdotes about gardens, neighbours and our security services, the latter which do a very good job, working day and night to keep us as safe as possible.

growstuff

Oreo

There was an element of wrongdoing by some Tel Aviv fans in Amsterdam I already said that some weren’t blameless but overall it was the Dutch Muslims who were worse, they weren’t Ajax football fans and in their own words they said they were ‘Jew hunting’ and that’s what they set out to do and did, which is completely different to opposing teams fighting.
Don’t you rewrite history growstuff.

I haven't - and don't take too kindly to people trying to be bullies.

The truth is that
Some of the Maccabi fans were provocative.

However, there were pre-planned attacks on them by Palestinian supporters. Jewish people were attacked too, in the days following the match.
Out of over 100 suspects just 10 were Maccabi fans (the Ultras?)
resulting in several receiving prison sentences, none Maccabi fans.
The attacks were condemned by Dutch authorities, who described them as antisemitic

Anyone attacking a person only because they are Jewish is anti-semitic.
It is wrong to retaliate against a 'provocative' racist group of Tel Aviv fans, by being racist yourself.

Oreo

I just knew that the pro Palestinians would cause trouble at Aston Villa Park tonight! No Tel Aviv fans here just the team playing a match.Just hope the police can contain them, it looks a real shambles at the moment.Why didn’t the police throw a wide cordon around the ground so that the Villa fans can get in?The pro Palestinian mob is right next to the ground itself.

Absolutely right. The police all aware, hence section 60 in place for the whole centre of Birmingham. Those on here supporting the Palestinian cause should see the video from black belt barrister, showing fireworks being let off at police, 19 people now arrested. Birmingham is not and was not a peaceful protest against a competing team, it was a show of anti semetism by Muslim extremists.