Trump and Putin negotiating War in Ukraine without Zelensky?

Thanks foxie

ronib

How exactly do we know that Zelensky has been fighting corruption? Evidence?

How do you know he has not? Evidence?
Well, there is no evidence or even a suggestion that Zelensky has done anything to interfere with or shut down the investigation that has been ongoing for the past 18 months by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, ( NABU), and the Special Anti-Corruption Prosecutor’s Office, (SAP) which has led to a number of arrests of high profile Ukrainians. So what evidence do you have Ronib that he has not been fighting corruption as well as fighting a war?

The point I labour to make is that we, here on GNet simply do not have the facts at our disposal. It doesn’t stop the assertions though.
I am finding the language around the Ukraine Russia debate very predictable however.

Actually it's quite simple. Russia invaded Ukraine and has continued to carry out bombing and murder as well as stealing children. This is a straightforward goodies versus baddies situation. There are nuances of course but they don't take away from the fact the that Ukraine has been wronged and grievously wronged.

And neither will Putin stop at Ukraine if Trump appeases putin who gets what he wants.

fancythat

ronib

Russia has a huge population and Ukraine has lost about 10 million leaving it with around 30 million. Not sustainable.

Eh> You cant mean 10 million people in fighting, surely?

I think I thought I used to agree with you quite a lot.

But when you fling numbers around, and say things, and dont answer what appears to be way out posts, I am questioning myself.

Sorry I had a medical appointment today fancythat

I agree with you Aveline 👍

ronib

The point I labour to make is that we, here on GNet simply do not have the facts at our disposal. It doesn’t stop the assertions though.
I am finding the language around the Ukraine Russia debate very predictable however.

Well the "assertions" that I make are based on fact, if they are not factual, please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. I'm a bit mystified about "what language around the Ukraine Russia debate" is very predictable, can you explain, please?

fancythat

fancythat

ronib

Russia has a huge population and Ukraine has lost about 10 million leaving it with around 30 million. Not sustainable.

Eh> You cant mean 10 million people in fighting, surely?

I think I thought I used to agree with you quite a lot.

But when you fling numbers around, and say things, and dont answer what appears to be way out posts, I am questioning myself.

It's terrible, but what Ronib said is confirmed by multiple sources.

ukraine.un.org/en/289506-unhcr-after-three-years-war-ukrainians-need-peace-and-aid

"UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, estimates that 10.6 million Ukrainians are displaced – almost a quarter of its pre-war population. Inside Ukraine, 3.7 million have been uprooted, while 6.9 million refugees continue to receive protection abroad. More than 2 million homes across Ukraine – 10 per cent of the housing stock – have been damaged or destroyed. Repeated attacks on energy infrastructure continue to plunge people into cold and darkness, while further disrupting strained local services. The newly displaced are increasingly vulnerable – older people and those living with disabilities – who often face additional challenges in accessing services they need the most. <....> Inside Ukraine, 12.7 million people – one third of the current population – need humanitarian assistance.It is estimated that up to one-third of Ukraine's territory has been exposed to contamination by landmines and ordnance. The impact of the war on the economy is extensive – agricultural and industrial hubs in the east have been devastated, and an estimated 30 per cent of pre-war jobs lost. "

euobserver.com/health-and-society/ar978eff35

In a nutshell foxie48 Ukraine is seen as the underdog and Russia the aggressor. There’s very little comment on what Russia’s game plan is apart from statements saying that it will continue to expand. Not much recognition of Russia’s perceived view on NATO as a threat to Russia. We’re very embedded in an anti Russian position. Obviously Russians will be very anti West and so it continues with even more losses.

But Nato has no ambitions to invade Russia.

Yes we know that but for some reason, Putin continues to see NATO as a threat. It’s the Russian perception against Western expansion I guess? Perception and reality don’t always match. Aveline

You are omitting a number of factors - one of which is that Putin’s intention has always been to get back the territory that existed before 1991. NATO of course is a good excuse.

Ronib Ukraine is the under dog and Russia is the aggressor. Russia's population is three times that of Ukraine. Russia has almost three times the land mass of Ukraine. Russia's nominal GDP is ten times that of Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia either in 2014 or 2022 but Russia did invade Ukraine.

Actually Europe has been pretty pro-Russia since the end of communism, many countries have energy deals with Russia that have made them too dependent on Russia, I doubt they would have done that if they were being anti-Russian. Russia became a member of the G7 in 1997 and was only kicked out because it invaded Ukraine. Initially Putin looked as if he was someone the West could do deals with and tbh I think we all heaved a sigh of relief. Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons that they had because Russia promised them peace. Sweden and Finland have joined NATO because they fear the threat of a Russian invasion not because they want to attack Russia. I think your "we're all being horrible to Russia" stance is really rather difficult to assert.

Okay foxie not so much being rather horrible to Russia but not engaging enough with the current Russian mindset?
To be clear, I would never have encouraged Zelensky to act as he did. It was never going to end well for Ukraine. Unfortunately.

The current Russian "mindset" is Putin's. How on earth is anyone supposed to engage with what he is thinking? I can only judge him by his actions. There are 19,500 verified cases of children being illegally taken to Russia from Ukraine. Russia is recruiting foreign troops to fight in Ukraine, this is hardly the actions of a country that wants peace. There is extensive evidence of Russia's widespread and systematic violations of the rules of war. Russian spy ships have been seen in British waters and lasers have been used to target our planes and pilots. I could go on, Ronib but I would be happy to read anything you add to this thread that provides reliable information that Russia is not, ATM, a malign force in the world and we should support it's desire to annex large parts of Ukraine.

Just listening to a senior German politician who said that if Trump follows through with the so called peace agreement with Putin, he will in fact have changed sides.

Next week the EU will use the billions of frozen Russian assets to give to Ukraine to replace USA withdrawn aid.

I heard a rather rude reason today as to why Trump is so willing to appease Putin. I can’t repeat it 😳, but I reckon anything can be true.

Does it involve an unknown person whose nickname is 'Bubba'?
Nuff said.

Yes😊 apparently it is in one of the Epstein e-mails to his brother!

We keep forgetting that when Trump was a close friend of Epstein, he was actually a Democrat. That means if he asks for Democrats to be looked at for wrong doing and that excludes them from their information being publicly released, it will cover him too! Hopefully, you get what I mean!

The only thing that makes any sense is if Putin really does have something on Trump that he’s been saving for a rainy day.Like now.
Trump has talked tough in public but where he can has pushed Putin’s agenda and point of view remorselessly.He’s said that Ukraine started the war and publicly embarrassed Zelensky in the Oval Office.

Some in the US government have said the plan isn't the US way and is a Russian wish list.
If Zelensky agrees with the plan it leaves Ukraine wide open to another attack also other nearby countries.

Surely he'll not agree to this ludicrous plan.