Woman shot and killed by ICE officers in Minneapolis, Minnesota

Starfire57

I'm sure you can read - but can you understand? I was pointing out Native Law was not written down, but was their law nonetheless. Immigrants to the US conveniently ignored these rights and settled on Native lands, staking their claims at gunpoint. Laws passed in the US in the 19th Century by white immigrants conveniently ignored these Native rights and laws.
A technique played out across the world - and one Trump is considering in Greenland now. He wants Greenland and thinks the US are entitled to take it. Mind blowing stuff.

Oh it was definitely aggression from the wife of the driver to the ICE operative when stood next to the car.She clearly said ‘Do you want to come at us, do you want to come at us?’ While taking an aggressive step towards him, then said ‘ go get some lunch big boy’ ( said sneeringly) then opened the passenger door and said ‘drive baby drive!’ When seconds earlier the other ICE operative can be heard saying repeatedly’get out of the car’.
This wasn’t AI.
The car then lurched right by the other ICE operative either brushing or just missing him and he raised his gun and shot into the car.
I don’t think any of that merited being shot, of course not but they do things differently and it’s at the best unwise to taunt and then drive forward at the time the driver did.
We can replay this over and over on this thread, but that’s what happened.
The only things we can’t know is if the operative really did think he was going to be targeted by the car and what was in the drivers mind. (Oreo Sun 11-Jan-26 19:58:33)

That assessment depends on observable facts, not post-hoc interpretations. The central factual dispute here is whether the vehicle was being used as a deadly weapon, i.e., whether it was intentionally driven at an officer in a manner that posed an immediate threat, or whether it was moving in an attempt to leave a tense and confusing situation. That question is not settled and is actively contested by video evidence and by statements from local officials.

The officer’s subjective fear, while relevant, is not dispositive. The legal standard is whether that fear was objectively reasonable, particularly given established training that discourages officers from positioning themselves in front of vehicles precisely because doing so escalates risk.

Until the full body-camera footage, forensic analysis, and independent investigation are completed, it is premature to frame this as a justified or understandable shooting based on the victim’s conduct rather than as a use of deadly force that requires rigorous legal scrutiny.

I know this sounds legalistic, but legal standards exist precisely to protect everyone. Once we start setting them aside, we can’t assume they’ll still protect us when it matters.

StoneofDestiny

Starfire57

I'm sure you can read - but can you understand? I was pointing out Native Law was not written down, but was their law nonetheless. Immigrants to the US conveniently ignored these rights and settled on Native lands, staking their claims at gunpoint. Laws passed in the US in the 19th Century by white immigrants conveniently ignored these Native rights and laws.
A technique played out across the world - and one Trump is considering in Greenland now. He wants Greenland and thinks the US are entitled to take it. Mind blowing stuff.

My point stands that those white settlers were not illegally settling because there were no immigration laws.

As I recall, Native Americans do not believe that anyone owns land. The land is sentient. One can live with the land.

They established their own territories, yes.

But no one is saying there wasn't a gradual takeover in the US of the settlers. But that was not illegal, at the time, as there were no laws concerning immigration.

For Native Americans, It was about treaties and living off that land, not owning it.

Soon of course, all that changed.

But so what? Pick up any World History book and show me where there was any civilized nation of today that didn't have their share of land being taken in various wars and killing of millions of people. In early times all over the world, people fought serious, injurious long wars and it was all for power and land.

History is full of this. But that is the past, and it cannot and will not be changed; not one person alive today is responsible for it or owes anyone else anything because of it.

Yet, according to some, the white person is to feel guilty about a time and place long before they were born.

Well, all that pointing fingers is why we are here today, why there is so much division among people.

And politics uses this for their own benefit. Each side has their own tactics, but using white guilt/straight white male/colonists/etc. is clearly left tactic that was working, still is to a point but wearing thinner everyday....and that's a big reason why alot of this is happening right now.

Also, the thing about Greenland. I don't know if you are aware but many, many mexican groups think they should take back the western states because they were "stolen"

You know, the states that the United States government legally purchased from Mexico in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

Bought and paid for. Not stolen. And, graciously allowed any Mexican citizen to stay and get instant citizenship, if they so choose.

Not a bad deal for the losing side in the Mexican-American War.

How far do you want to go back to? Perhaps to the time when the settlers stole America from the Native Americans and treated them like dirt?

MayBee70

How far do you want to go back to? Perhaps to the time when the settlers stole America from the Native Americans and treated them like dirt?

Idk, you tell me. Like , no settlers were killed by Native Americans either? My point is, all across the world, people went to war over land. This is the history of the world and nobody alive today played a part in it.

It's how our civilizations were born, through hostile takeovers. Everywhere, literally every place on the globe.

Stop blaming people now. It is what it is, nobody is going to change that basic fact.

Governments are powerful, established and laws are there, and if you are lucky to live in democratic countries, at least you have a vote on it.

If the vote doesn't go your way, that doesn't mean others votes don't count.

All the talk of the "loss of democracy" in the US is literally trying to undo that very vote of the majority, the vote in a free democratic election. It's a desperate attempt by the losing side. It might work, might not.

Trump will leave office after 2 more years. He's not coming back. But, if his policies end up making the country better, he may have a successor who will continue them. Or not, and then someone with a different vision will be elected.

I can't predict the future.

We will see, because again, it's up to the democracy, the vote we have established and what will always be in the US.

The hysteria over the perceived threat of fascism in the US is astounding, like some weird mental illness taking over.

Our constitution, our system of checks and balances have stood the test of time since 1776.

I really, really think the entitlement attitudes of today are leading to people who want hand picking of the laws they choose to obey or not obey.

Or no laws might be a wish of some. I really don't know, but I do know people should be careful what they wish for.

Well put, Starfire57!

Junglebub

Well put, Starfire57!

Thank you!

Starfire57

MayBee70

How far do you want to go back to? Perhaps to the time when the settlers stole America from the Native Americans and treated them like dirt?

Idk, you tell me. Like , no settlers were killed by Native Americans either? My point is, all across the world, people went to war over land. This is the history of the world and nobody alive today played a part in it.

It's how our civilizations were born, through hostile takeovers. Everywhere, literally every place on the globe.

Stop blaming people now. It is what it is, nobody is going to change that basic fact.

Governments are powerful, established and laws are there, and if you are lucky to live in democratic countries, at least you have a vote on it.

If the vote doesn't go your way, that doesn't mean others votes don't count.

All the talk of the "loss of democracy" in the US is literally trying to undo that very vote of the majority, the vote in a free democratic election. It's a desperate attempt by the losing side. It might work, might not.

Trump will leave office after 2 more years. He's not coming back. But, if his policies end up making the country better, he may have a successor who will continue them. Or not, and then someone with a different vision will be elected.

I can't predict the future.

We will see, because again, it's up to the democracy, the vote we have established and what will always be in the US.

The hysteria over the perceived threat of fascism in the US is astounding, like some weird mental illness taking over.

Our constitution, our system of checks and balances have stood the test of time since 1776.

I really, really think the entitlement attitudes of today are leading to people who want hand picking of the laws they choose to obey or not obey.

Or no laws might be a wish of some. I really don't know, but I do know people should be careful what they wish for.

Your constitution, system of checks and balances has thrown up a president like Trump. Someone that can pardon murderers ( how do you feel about convicted criminals being pardoned by the way?) and does so, can veto anything that congress passes and is talking about changing the rules so he can stand for a third term. And, believe me he will try to do that unless his health prevents it.

MayBee70

Starfire57

MayBee70

How far do you want to go back to? Perhaps to the time when the settlers stole America from the Native Americans and treated them like dirt?

Idk, you tell me. Like , no settlers were killed by Native Americans either? My point is, all across the world, people went to war over land. This is the history of the world and nobody alive today played a part in it.

It's how our civilizations were born, through hostile takeovers. Everywhere, literally every place on the globe.

Stop blaming people now. It is what it is, nobody is going to change that basic fact.

Governments are powerful, established and laws are there, and if you are lucky to live in democratic countries, at least you have a vote on it.

If the vote doesn't go your way, that doesn't mean others votes don't count.

All the talk of the "loss of democracy" in the US is literally trying to undo that very vote of the majority, the vote in a free democratic election. It's a desperate attempt by the losing side. It might work, might not.

Trump will leave office after 2 more years. He's not coming back. But, if his policies end up making the country better, he may have a successor who will continue them. Or not, and then someone with a different vision will be elected.

I can't predict the future.

We will see, because again, it's up to the democracy, the vote we have established and what will always be in the US.

The hysteria over the perceived threat of fascism in the US is astounding, like some weird mental illness taking over.

Our constitution, our system of checks and balances have stood the test of time since 1776.

I really, really think the entitlement attitudes of today are leading to people who want hand picking of the laws they choose to obey or not obey.

Or no laws might be a wish of some. I really don't know, but I do know people should be careful what they wish for.

Your constitution, system of checks and balances has thrown up a president like Trump. Someone that can pardon murderers ( how do you feel about convicted criminals being pardoned by the way?) and does so, can veto anything that congress passes and is talking about changing the rules so he can stand for a third term. And, believe me he will try to do that unless his health prevents it.

That is utter poppycock.. He cannot and will not.

Pardons and vetos, all part of any president's term and power. Not new.

I am guessing, he would love to change the rules but he knows that would take an act of Congress, which just isn't going to happen.

Trump getting elected was the result of ultra liberal policies of the Democrats, that’s what happens in a democracy extreme in one way results on extreme reaction in the opposite.

In the same way the incompetence of the Tories resulted in a massive victory for Labour, the majority don’t like the new policies either, but at least Starmer is a better diplomat than Trump.

I think what Trump is doing goes well beyond a 'perceived threat of fascism'.

Trump getting elected was due to his lies about 'America First'.
His voters thought he meant for them.
His grifting has shown he meant it for himself.
I do agree with your final statement David.

David is completely right, it is what happens when a 'left' party embrace identity politics and ignore the fairly mainstream views of a large section of people. I am not sure how many times it is going to happen before people say oh I see.
I would also add that opposition parties saying Trump/Farage/ insert relevant name are fascists doesn't work either.

But of course, Galaxy, the opposite approach doesn’t work either. That’s why there are now widespread protests against Trump, and other oppressive right wing regimes, it would happen here if Farage was in charge in the UK too. The truth is that the only political system that can succeed long term is one of compromise, the middle ground.

Casdon - we can only hope and even 🙏🏽 that compromise and the middle ground can become sought after.

Maremia

I think what Trump is doing goes well beyond a 'perceived threat of fascism'.

Oooh, really, how so?

One key reason:

Trump constantly seeks to overturn the rule of law as embodied in the Constitution.

The Supreme Court, which is politically and solidly naturally inclined towards the Right has had to intervene and it has lost Republican support in many quarters because of this.

Believing you have the god given right to overturn the very Constitution itself by diktats

Cannot be other than the mark of tyrannical rule, enforced by military means or the threat of them, is a move that has been taken by tyrants before.

A second reason: he is surrounding himself with cronies, brown noses, many of whom have inadequate experience to do the work they are appointed to.

A good example of this is Walt Nauta.

Nauta served in the U.S. Navy as a culinary specialist and later as a personal valet to President Trump during his time in the White House. After Trump's term ended, Nauta left the Navy and continued to work as his personal aide or "body man" at the Mar-a-Lago club and residence.

He was a co-defendant with Donald Trump in the federal classified documents case. Prosecutors accused him of moving boxes containing classified documents at Trump's direction to conceal them from federal investigators and a Trump attorney, and of lying to the FBI.

Trump appointed him to Board of Visitors to the U.S. Naval Academy in March 2025.

Well said Wyllow .

Trump’s latest manoevre with the Federal Reserve is his latest cudgel. He will batter and threaten anyone and that person now is Jerome Powell.

Trump is not interested in Democracy nor respects it.
If you disagree he will use his battering ram of verbal threats, lawsuits, firing when he can.

If Starfire wants to ignore the fact that Trump is leaning hard into fascism let’s review the definition :

Fascism is a far right, authoritarian political ideology emphasizing extreme nationalism, militarism, and a strong centralized autocratic government led by a dictator, prioritizing the nation or race above the individual and suppressing opposition through force.

Trump definitely fits the bill.

Maremia

I think what Trump is doing goes well beyond a 'perceived threat of fascism'.

Me too, but I’m not going to waste any more valuable time arguing with people like Starfire57 I don’t belueve they represent many Americans views, beliefs and morals, and I cannot agree with their assertions around Trump.

We lived in the USA for just over a year many many years ago, I was only 15. My Dad did business with a few deep Southern States, I still have friends and family spread across the USA (& Canada).

I used to love the USA and holidayed there frequently, whilst Trump is there none of my immediate family will visit.

Starfire57 may have differing views, however we in the UK have legitimate fears and are perfectly at liberty to express them, far from their current POTUS view that we across the pond are prevented from using “freedom of speech”, it’s far more likely to happen back in his homeland, due to his skewed idea of governing and dictatorial leadership.

Btw way I do not recall ANY former POTUS using their powers of “pardoning” in quite the same way as Trump.

Our current, and previous governments are far from perfect, we need an answer to stopping illegal immigration, however there are ways to do this which don’t include terrorising and/or killing our own legal citizens.

Casdon

But of course, Galaxy, the opposite approach doesn’t work either. That’s why there are now widespread protests against Trump, and other oppressive right wing regimes, it would happen here if Farage was in charge in the UK too. The truth is that the only political system that can succeed long term is one of compromise, the middle ground.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Yes, that is quite right.

Wyllow3

One key reason:

Trump constantly seeks to overturn the rule of law as embodied in the Constitution.

The Supreme Court, which is politically and solidly naturally inclined towards the Right has had to intervene and it has lost Republican support in many quarters because of this.

Believing you have the god given right to overturn the very Constitution itself by diktats

Cannot be other than the mark of tyrannical rule, enforced by military means or the threat of them, is a move that has been taken by tyrants before.

Which constitutional laws?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.