Robert Jenrick has been sacked

'It has finally happened. In a rare moment of brutal self awareness, Reform UK has stopped pretending to be a grassroots revolt and admitted what Westminster has long whispered, it is Britain’s political knacker’s yard. A secure paddock for Conservative MPs and ex MPs whose reputations have become so rancid that even the modern Tory party has quietly backed away holding a peg on its nose'
...copied from facebook....

I think rancid is a good word to describe how this thread has become. I'm not in the minority as we'll see on May 7th

I agree with you Marg75.... There's too many posters on this forum who 'know it all' and think people who support Reform are all stupid..

For some reason I can’t always quote from my phone, but DAR asked on the previous page ‘what brink?’

I’d like to ask the same question. ‘Pull the UK back from the brink’ of what? I do wish the trend (or whatever it is) of speaking in vague metaphors would stop. It’s so difficult to know what people are talking about.

Of what are we on the brink, please? Some specifics would be good - not something like ‘the brink of falling off a cliff’.

What are we facing?
Well, at a rough guess:
Four years of a failing PM sticking to his Marxist principles with absolutely no intention of going;
an inept Chancellor and front bench,
failing education system ,
failing utilities, specifically water,
over burdened but wastefully funded health system,
burgeoning welfare state supporting the workshy
rising taxation
immigration, legal and illegal
Conservatives beginning to form a credible opposition undermined by infighting self servers whilst in government, now defecting to a party led by a maverick;
No concern in any of the parties for the electorate who put them there in the first place.

That do to be going on with?

Not forgetting the volatile world situation: Russia, China, far and middle East, Ukraine and of course, Trump.
I have never felt fearful facing the future.
I do now.

Marg75

But that's debate isn't it? What one person perceives as true, another may see as something else. I think what he said about our country today is true in my eyes, you may not see that, but sadly neither the Conservatives nor the Labour party are capable of doing anything about it.

NO that isn't debate! This may help you see that much of what us said on GN - such bringing us back from the "brink" - is simply gossip.

Gossip doesn’t care much whether something is true
Discussion cares about finding what’s true
Debate cares about defending what’s claimed to be true

This thread has reminded me why I seldom post in the N & P threads nowadays 🤦‍♀️

It isnt as simple as that. There are numerous subjects where it is a question of opinion, take abortion, there are very strong views on either side of that debate, there isnt one truth on that subject, there are opinions. Obviously many statements on issues can be challenged, if someone says the eath is flat you can show that is not true, if someone says I think the housing crisis is one of the most significant issues for young people then you could debate that opinion, there wouldn't be an absolute truth there but rather a range of views.

Primrose was your post in answer to the question of what it is that we are on the brink of? I’m still no wiser. You have listed opinions- some I share, some I don’t and others are too vague to understand (eg ‘his Marxist principles’ doesn’t mean anything). You have not said what or where the brink might be. Brink of what?

How can people debate if we don’t know what is being discussed?

GrannyGravy13

This thread has reminded me why I seldom post in the N & P threads nowadays 🤦‍♀️

You are missed GrannyGravy13. I think most people do want to have a proper discussion, with different points of view being expressed, rather than confrontation.

I certainly don't think supporter of Reform are stupid but I do think Reform is selling easy answers to difficult questions and their supporters are forming a queue to buy them. When I look at the history of so many of Reform's political members, the number of them who have been tarnished by misbehaviour or criminality I do question why anyone would give them their support. Not everyone's vote will be cast on the basis of immigration, some of us have wider concerns and I sincerely hope we never have a Reform government.

But what are Reforms actual policies away from immigration?

The idea that Starmer is a Marxist is so far from reality.

What is our country on the brink of? Farrage and his troop of failed tories hasn’t spelled out policies I’m aware of. Other than privatising the health service. A party with Jenerick and Lee Anderson inspires zero confidence

I don’t think Starmer is a Marxist, tho he did support Corbyn , another mistake.
The electorate want a change from the failed Tory policies but don’t want more of the same from Labour, or even worse!
Which is why Reform is riding high in the polls.

DaisyAnneReturns

Marg75

Thank you Primrose 53, I was hoping, after three pages, that someone would agree with me.

Doesn't that tell you you may be in a minority?

Only on here maybe! In real life there is now massive support for Reform. 😉

Doodledog

Primrose was your post in answer to the question of what it is that we are on the brink of? I’m still no wiser. You have listed opinions- some I share, some I don’t and others are too vague to understand (eg ‘his Marxist principles’ doesn’t mean anything). You have not said what or where the brink might be. Brink of what?

How can people debate if we don’t know what is being discussed?

I think you have confused me with someone else Doodledog

That isn’t really the question though Primrose53, it is whether the defection of Jenrick will boost or reduce Reform’s standing with the public, and whether it will improve the status of the Tories with the public?

MollyNew

Serves him right, treacherous weasel.

That comment has made me laugh out loud (literally)😂

I'm making no comment on my feelings about Jenrick (I assume they can be surmised), but it tickled me. I don't know what weasels do to be assumed treacherous, but you never hear of a good one, do you?

Primrose53

Doodledog

Primrose was your post in answer to the question of what it is that we are on the brink of? I’m still no wiser. You have listed opinions- some I share, some I don’t and others are too vague to understand (eg ‘his Marxist principles’ doesn’t mean anything). You have not said what or where the brink might be. Brink of what?

How can people debate if we don’t know what is being discussed?

I think you have confused me with someone else Doodledog

I have, sorry. It was eazybee's post I was responding to.

In my defence, I had less than four hours' sleep.

Casdon

We are not by any stretch ‘at the brink’ whatever that means. The UK is going through hard times, as is the rest of the world. Reform, with its ragbag of mavericks and defectors, does not hold any keys to our future success as a country in my opinion, and I think if a few more Tories from the right of the party defect, the centre right will prevail and the Tories will be back in business.

I'm not sure.

It might seem as if the world is on the brink of something at the moment, with us all holding our breath wondering what the next move might be from one of the three most powerful but unpredictable world leaders might be.

It does not feel like a calm, peaceful time to be living in and I do fear for my children and grandchildren.

Doodledog

MollyNew

Serves him right, treacherous weasel.

That comment has made me laugh out loud (literally)😂

I'm making no comment on my feelings about Jenrick (I assume they can be surmised), but it tickled me. I don't know what weasels do to be assumed treacherous, but you never hear of a good one, do you?

What, treacherous - me? I'm just a sweet pussy cat.
How dare you compare me to that treacherous snake-in-the-grass Jenrick!

I think we are all on the brink - but not the one you might think of. I’m talking about war. We are living in very unsettled and unsettling times and I wish we had some good strong and trustworthy leaders. I can’t see any .

friendlygingercat

He was Kemi's main rival and now he has gone. I didnt think much of her when she was elected (lifelong Tory that I am but always to the right) but she has come up in my estimation lately.

There is the crux of the matter . A rival. Where is the proof of his perfidious, if it was such, behaviour. Or did she oust him because.
Shame Starmer is not so quick on the ball though.

Where is the proof of his perfidious, if it was such, behaviour.

"A source with access to Jenrick's office had handed the Tory leadership a draft of Jenrick's secret defection speech, which included excoriating attacks on shadow cabinet ministers."
BBC

He has been proved to be duplicitous for some time.

Polling data shows support for Reform decreasing among the 65+ demographic which strongly supported the party in 2024.

Among 25-49s they are polling the same as the Greens on 19% and 18-24 only 10%. Younger people don’t like Reform.

Gaining defectors of dubious character such as Zahawi and Jenrick is more likely to repel than attract moderate people.

In the weekly You Gov polling which asks - If there were a general election held tomorrow, which party would you vote for? Reform are polling at only 10% among the 18-24s; 19% among 25-49s (equal with the Greens); 32% among 50-64s and 29% among 65+.

The latter is down 6 points compared to before Christmas with a corresponding bump up for the Tories. Similar is happening with the 50-64s albeit a smaller bump, but support for Reform down, Tories up.

As these were the two groups which most strongly supported Reform in 2024 are we starting to see a move back to the Tories now that the most controversial ones are jumping ship?

Labour is still slightly ahead of Reform overall.

If we had an election tomorrow we’d probably have a hung Parliament.

I’m interested to see what happens next.

Zia Yusuf has a bad relationship with Jenrick and is known to flounce when things aren't going his way.

Zia Yusuf – Reform’s head of policy and someone with a particularly difficult backstory in terms of his relationship with Jenrick – appeared a month ago to recognise the very real discontent among an unknown chunk of the party.

“I’ve had many messages from Reform grassroots worried about former Tory MPs joining our party. I want to be clear to our Reform grassroots: YOU will be prioritised in candidate selection for our next class of MPs, NOT failed former Tory MPs,” he said.

While Jenrick and Farage batted away journalists who brought up their previous criticism of each other, tensions between Jenrick and Yusuf may be trickier to mend. Calling on Reform to give Yusuf “the boot” last year, Jenrick had accused him of deliberately liking an X post from an anonymous account attacking the then Tory MP for having a Jewish wife and family.

Yusuf had claimed it was liked “accidentally” by one of his team. Nevertheless, he was also a notable absence at the event unveiling Jenrick at Reform HQ on Thursday. Eyebrows were also raised when Farage – apparently half-jokingly – said that Yusuf was particularly resentful towards MPs who had been part of recent successive Tory governments. (Guardian)

I'm keen to see the next few weeks of polling data for the response to "Honest Bob's'" defection.

At least it gives the satirists something to get their teeth into.

Favourite quip from Rory Bremner:

Reform: “Britain is broken. And what we need in our party are people who have frontline experience of breaking it”.