This is low, even for Reform

Meandrogrog anecdotes about the voting intentions of those you know is not representative of the voting intentions of the country as a whole. It’s always worth keeping track of public opinion before making your own predictions.
Here the latest poll tracker.
www.google.com/goto?url=CAESXAHrOzAV4pLAPSRND70D3C6wn3mC416kQhfZ7pR7op7Uhu0OgTKBL4aDImWsNPeyGPwai1dzN_exn1lYYriSyTMyL7YUF7HOCq-_MTXLLHBM2HnkCEeLeglZEbIj

Meandgrog
I suggest you volunteer at Citizens Advice or your local food bank to really understand the impact of our benefits system ! It is a safety net for us all when or if we need it !
As for leaving the ECHR are you seriously wanting our rights eroded ! Especially those pertaining to women it astounds me that we have struggled for so long to get where we are today and you want to take us backwards! Do you really want our country to be run by oligarchs as in Russia and to some extent USA?
Please think very seriously about what you wish for .
I wonder how many on here have actually worked in their local councils , parish councils etc to have an understanding how the wheels of democracy actually turn?
As I am visiting Australia soon Nanna8!I shall be an expert on your Gov too as you are on ours 👍

Meandrogrog, you refer your "100%" knowledge of those who spend their benefits on " alcohol and drugs". Obviously, we have no way of referencing what kind of numbers this represents, but the question I have is, what would you suggest we, as a society, do for this group of people?
Clearly, if they are dependent on drugs and alcohol, they are not employable, and offers of counselling/ rehabilitation are very costly, have limited availability, and are only of use to those willing and able to engage.
So, regardless of which party is in government, what can you suggest?

I’ve worked in teaching and then social work - guess what? Local council funded. I can truly say we did better under a Liberal government ( conservative) than we did under Labor governments. The Labor mob at that time did not like or support the use of volunteers. I had around 950 volunteers in many different tasks, wonderful people but the Labour Party thought we were taking jobs from people which was rubbish. The unions ruled, funded and still rule the Labor party here. We are not quite so quick to hand out funds to unemployed people, though and we have to pay for many services which are free in the UK. Swings and roundabouts.

Meandrogrog

A family member is receiving benefits due to mental health, self inflicted problems. This person receives more than a contemporary would earn in a full time job, and spends this money on alcohol and drugs, as I have been informed that so do the people living around this person in social housing, rent fully paid. This person also has carers each day to clean the flat and provide support.

What is your opinion on this Dickens? I am not being combative towards you, just curious to know if you feel this is acceptable to you?

Thanks for responding Meandrogrog - I appreciate that you are not being combative and didn't take your reply as such either.

It's quite difficult to give an opinion on a case (your family member) with only the bare bones outlined - and I appreciate you won't want to go into detail. So I can only give a generic answer.

You ask if this is acceptable to me. My answer is that it's not a question of whether it is or isn't, drug and alcohol addictions are a fact of life. The more important question is what can be done to prevent it - and more widely, to deal with the pervasive problem of county lines.

Strictly speaking yes, addictions are usually self-inflicted. I would point out though, that is not always the case. People can also become addicted to drugs legitimately prescribed by the NHS. So we either punish this self-inflicted trauma by leaving the individual to their own devices without support, or we try to help them. If addicts are left to cope, on their own, with no income, no support - do you think this might not have disastrous consequences for the general public who would have to deal with the consequences of, most likely, an addict, homeless, penny-less, looking for his/her next 'fix'? We could of course round them all up and lock them in prison - but how much would this cost in comparison to supporting them? Do you see the problem, and why it's not a question of whether or not it's 'acceptable' to support them?

Also bear in mind - and I'm not referring to your own family member's case here - some addictions result from a person who's been traumatised by some horrible event in their life - like rape, or abuse, or being a witness to something that's left them unable to cope.

I'll ask you a question now. How do you feel about Corporate Extraction of Wealth? When a corporation prioritises short-term payouts to executives and wealthy shareholders over long-term investments in its workers, infrastructure, and community. This is a genuine question and I am interested in getting your view on...

... corporations redirecting massive profits into stock buybacks and executive bonuses instead of raising worker's wages.
... wealth concentrating heavily at the very top, while the average worker's purchasing power stagnates, shrinking the middle class
... multinational firms frequently using aggressive accounting, offshore tax havens, or legal loopholes to minimise their corporate tax burden
... local and national government losing billions in tax revenue, leading to underfunded public schools, crumbling roads, and strained healthcare systems

I suppose I am challenging you to look at things from a different perspective - though not in an aggressive way, because I appreciate that you are engaging seriously in this dialogue.

Chocolatelovinggran

Meandrogrog, you refer your "100%" knowledge of those who spend their benefits on " alcohol and drugs". Obviously, we have no way of referencing what kind of numbers this represents, but the question I have is, what would you suggest we, as a society, do for this group of people?
Clearly, if they are dependent on drugs and alcohol, they are not employable, and offers of counselling/ rehabilitation are very costly, have limited availability, and are only of use to those willing and able to engage.
So, regardless of which party is in government, what can you suggest?

I would suggest not allowing them to starve in the gutter as in times past.

It is easy enough to give vouchers for rent, food, utilities etc plus a small amount of cash and ensure the vouchers can only be used for the purpose they are being given. I think taxpayers would be happier if this were to happen.

Dickens

Meandrogrog

A family member is receiving benefits due to mental health, self inflicted problems. This person receives more than a contemporary would earn in a full time job, and spends this money on alcohol and drugs, as I have been informed that so do the people living around this person in social housing, rent fully paid. This person also has carers each day to clean the flat and provide support.

What is your opinion on this Dickens? I am not being combative towards you, just curious to know if you feel this is acceptable to you?

Thanks for responding Meandrogrog - I appreciate that you are not being combative and didn't take your reply as such either.

It's quite difficult to give an opinion on a case (your family member) with only the bare bones outlined - and I appreciate you won't want to go into detail. So I can only give a generic answer.

You ask if this is acceptable to me. My answer is that it's not a question of whether it is or isn't, drug and alcohol addictions are a fact of life. The more important question is what can be done to prevent it - and more widely, to deal with the pervasive problem of county lines.

Strictly speaking yes, addictions are usually self-inflicted. I would point out though, that is not always the case. People can also become addicted to drugs legitimately prescribed by the NHS. So we either punish this self-inflicted trauma by leaving the individual to their own devices without support, or we try to help them. If addicts are left to cope, on their own, with no income, no support - do you think this might not have disastrous consequences for the general public who would have to deal with the consequences of, most likely, an addict, homeless, penny-less, looking for his/her next 'fix'? We could of course round them all up and lock them in prison - but how much would this cost in comparison to supporting them? Do you see the problem, and why it's not a question of whether or not it's 'acceptable' to support them?

Also bear in mind - and I'm not referring to your own family member's case here - some addictions result from a person who's been traumatised by some horrible event in their life - like rape, or abuse, or being a witness to something that's left them unable to cope.

I'll ask you a question now. How do you feel about Corporate Extraction of Wealth? When a corporation prioritises short-term payouts to executives and wealthy shareholders over long-term investments in its workers, infrastructure, and community. This is a genuine question and I am interested in getting your view on...

... corporations redirecting massive profits into stock buybacks and executive bonuses instead of raising worker's wages.
... wealth concentrating heavily at the very top, while the average worker's purchasing power stagnates, shrinking the middle class
... multinational firms frequently using aggressive accounting, offshore tax havens, or legal loopholes to minimise their corporate tax burden
... local and national government losing billions in tax revenue, leading to underfunded public schools, crumbling roads, and strained healthcare systems

I suppose I am challenging you to look at things from a different perspective - though not in an aggressive way, because I appreciate that you are engaging seriously in this dialogue.

Thank you for your reply and I fully agree that those unfortunate enough to become addicted, sometimes due to trauma, need as much kindness and support as possible. That is not in dispute at all but please see my replyto another poster regarding a voucher scheme.

In reply to your question concerning big corporations, yes money should go as you are suggesting, and I do support Labour in wanting to take back control into public ownership of some of these companies.

When it comes to wealth being concentarted at the top, we do live in a capitalist society. Communism has been tried and failed, there will always be those at the top and also at the bottom of society. I dont really suffer from the politics of envy.

Tax evasion by multinationals is a big subject, I suspect if there are legal loopholes they will be used?

Why would leaving the ECHR be good for normal citizens of the UK?

Excellent post Dickens

Meandrogrog

When it comes to wealth being concentarted at the top, we do live in a capitalist society. Communism has been tried and failed, there will always be those at the top and also at the bottom of society. I dont really suffer from the politics of envy.

Communism is not the alternative to Capitalism! And I don't understand why people think this. Truly, I've never met anyone - even the most devout Labour supporter - who thinks Communism is the only other option.

You can have a 'healthy' and competitive Capitalist economy and decent public services! The two are not mutually exclusive.

... and it's nothing to do with the politics of envy - most people who subscribe to a mixed economy model do so because they believe in an equitable society - a stable society is good for business, a stable society attracts investment. Systemic fairness is good for Capitalism and divisions and instability definitely are not,... and that's where we're heading now.

nanna8

I’ve worked in teaching and then social work - guess what? Local council funded. I can truly say we did better under a Liberal government ( conservative) than we did under Labor governments. The Labor mob at that time did not like or support the use of volunteers. I had around 950 volunteers in many different tasks, wonderful people but the Labour Party thought we were taking jobs from people which was rubbish. The unions ruled, funded and still rule the Labor party here. We are not quite so quick to hand out funds to unemployed people, though and we have to pay for many services which are free in the UK. Swings and roundabouts.

Much as I hate to point this out, but political parties with similar names Nanna8 may operate completely differently in different countries.

I don’t pretend to be an expert in my own country’s politics, so I can say with some certainty that I know nothing about the Australian political system at all.

Meandrogrog

I feel so sorry for your relative.

Addiction is a medical condition, Mental Health conditions are never self inflicted and I can only assume your unfortunate comment stems from ignorance, not of your relative’s situation, but of mental health in general.

Your relative is housed, and clearly looked after.

What would you prefer happens to him/her, and others in that situation?

Your sweeping generalisations are pretty shocking, but not in the least surprising.

I pray that you never find yourself in need of any kind of help or support.

Btw Nanna, NO services in this country are free

Susieq62

Meandgrog
I suggest you volunteer at Citizens Advice or your local food bank to really understand the impact of our benefits system ! It is a safety net for us all when or if we need it !
As for leaving the ECHR are you seriously wanting our rights eroded ! Especially those pertaining to women it astounds me that we have struggled for so long to get where we are today and you want to take us backwards! Do you really want our country to be run by oligarchs as in Russia and to some extent USA?
Please think very seriously about what you wish for .
I wonder how many on here have actually worked in their local councils , parish councils etc to have an understanding how the wheels of democracy actually turn?
As I am visiting Australia soon Nanna8!I shall be an expert on your Gov too as you are on ours 👍

👏👏👏👏👏

Enjoy your Oz trip 😜😜

nanna8

The Labor mob at that time did not like or support the use of volunteers.

Maybe the Labor mob had a point?

There's nothing a market-led government would like more than to have the necessary social and health needs of its country's inhabitants met by unpaid volunteers and charities in order to free it of any statutory obligations!

As for the Labor party being funded and ruled by the unions - unions made up of, you know - the workers who actually do the work and keep the wheels of industry and commerce spinning and who, presumably, you don't object to having a stake in the way things are run? - that’s just how modern politics works!

You're either looking at a government influenced by organised labour, or one influenced by corporate boardrooms and billionaires.

Pick your flavour of influence, but don't pretend one side is neutral!

Unemployment could - as you appear to be hinting at - be due to some lazy individual who just doesn't want to or intend to, work. But more likely, in a fast-chaning world where unemployment is a reality, be genuine. And unless you are very wealthy, an accident or illness can change your whole life and plans and tip you into unemployment. Any system which provides for the needs of the unemployed is open to abuse and fraudulent claims, but it's up to said government to provide the necessary checks to prevent it. But if such a government would rather rely on discriminating against the unemployed as a method to control it, then don't be surprised if you or someone in your family finds themselves dumped in that category of despised individuals with little or no means of support.

Maremia

Why would leaving the ECHR be good for normal citizens of the UK?

... maybe because some believe it will only affect a group of people they are biased against?

Until some heavy-handed government creates policies which strip them of their rights.

You've only to look at how women's rights are being eroded in the US to understand that this is not a good idea.

But, as is often the case, it's a lack of understanding how the ECHR works and, more importantly, why it's a necessary institution.

Susieq62

Meandgrog
I suggest you volunteer at Citizens Advice or your local food bank to really understand the impact of our benefits system ! It is a safety net for us all when or if we need it !
As for leaving the ECHR are you seriously wanting our rights eroded ! Especially those pertaining to women it astounds me that we have struggled for so long to get where we are today and you want to take us backwards! Do you really want our country to be run by oligarchs as in Russia and to some extent USA?
Please think very seriously about what you wish for .
I wonder how many on here have actually worked in their local councils , parish councils etc to have an understanding how the wheels of democracy actually turn?
As I am visiting Australia soon Nanna8!I shall be an expert on your Gov too as you are on ours 👍

I know its a safety net, .i do not need a lecture! Its the misuse of the safety net I am talking about.

I am sure you will be an expert about Australia on your return, enjoy your trip!

Dickens

Meandrogrog

When it comes to wealth being concentarted at the top, we do live in a capitalist society. Communism has been tried and failed, there will always be those at the top and also at the bottom of society. I dont really suffer from the politics of envy.

Communism is not the alternative to Capitalism! And I don't understand why people think this. Truly, I've never met anyone - even the most devout Labour supporter - who thinks Communism is the only other option.

You can have a 'healthy' and competitive Capitalist economy and decent public services! The two are not mutually exclusive.

... and it's nothing to do with the politics of envy - most people who subscribe to a mixed economy model do so because they believe in an equitable society - a stable society is good for business, a stable society attracts investment. Systemic fairness is good for Capitalism and divisions and instability definitely are not,... and that's where we're heading now.

We should already have decent public services given the amount of tax we all pay, its down to Government incompetence and money being wasted.

How do we achieve systemic fairness? Given the strength of your feeling about this the expectation is that you have some good ideas. Do share.

Dickens

Maremia

Why would leaving the ECHR be good for normal citizens of the UK?

... maybe because some believe it will only affect a group of people they are biased against?

Until some heavy-handed government creates policies which strip them of their rights.

You've only to look at how women's rights are being eroded in the US to understand that this is not a good idea.

But, as is often the case, it's a lack of understanding how the ECHR works and, more importantly, why it's a necessary institution.

It was all due to Blair, he did a lot of damage.

Cossy

nanna8

I’ve worked in teaching and then social work - guess what? Local council funded. I can truly say we did better under a Liberal government ( conservative) than we did under Labor governments. The Labor mob at that time did not like or support the use of volunteers. I had around 950 volunteers in many different tasks, wonderful people but the Labour Party thought we were taking jobs from people which was rubbish. The unions ruled, funded and still rule the Labor party here. We are not quite so quick to hand out funds to unemployed people, though and we have to pay for many services which are free in the UK. Swings and roundabouts.

Much as I hate to point this out, but political parties with similar names Nanna8 may operate completely differently in different countries.

I don’t pretend to be an expert in my own country’s politics, so I can say with some certainty that I know nothing about the Australian political system at all.

Meandrogrog

I feel so sorry for your relative.

Addiction is a medical condition, Mental Health conditions are never self inflicted and I can only assume your unfortunate comment stems from ignorance, not of your relative’s situation, but of mental health in general.

Your relative is housed, and clearly looked after.

What would you prefer happens to him/her, and others in that situation?

Your sweeping generalisations are pretty shocking, but not in the least surprising.

I pray that you never find yourself in need of any kind of help or support.

Its been proved that smoking cannabis as a teenager can alter the growing brain, can you explain to me how that is not self inflicted please?

Meandrogrog

We should already have decent public services given the amount of tax we all pay, its down to Government incompetence and money being wasted.

I agree, we should have decent public services. And cutting waste is obviously a damned good idea - in any department. But if you keep on cutting - cutting beyond the need to eliminate waste and start cutting staff again and again, to save money - but still expect to function adequately, well then you end up with what we have now - depleted services. Those cuts - Austerity - began in 2008. Labour - and I'm not 'flag-waving' for them - have had little time to turn things round, so the main 'incompetence lies with the government that insisted on those rounds of cuts.

How do we achieve systemic fairness? Given the strength of your feeling about this the expectation is that you have some good ideas. Do share.

They're not my ideas. A mixed economy is an established economic system. For brevity's sake - look at Norway (I worked there for 12 years). Norway is highly competitive in the market-place - it has a guiding principle which is, in simplified terms, that to get the best out of your workforce, you have to invest in them - with good public services that look after their health and welfare. It's that simple. Sure, Norwegians pay higher taxes, but what people ignore, is that wages are very much higher than here in the UK.
When my late partner and I returned home from Norway - we were considerably better off financially than when we emigrated. You can figure it out yourself.

I agree. This morning I have read in newspapers that migrant households have claimed £12.9 billion pounds in last year. This should not be allowed.

“It’s been proved that smoking cannabis as a teenager can alter the growing brain, can you explain to me how that is not self inflicted please?“

I truly believe people with mental health issues should be supported and helped, with the management of their condition, whether “self-inflicted” or not, rather than judged.

There are so many cannabis users in this country, far more than you’d think, who hold down jobs at all levels and are high-functioning self-sufficient, responsible humans.

I accept for a small proportion, particularly boys, using cannabis can cause extreme psychotic reactions, when used before their brains have fully developed.

However this is normally caused by the very strong chemically altered batches, such as skunk.

It has been proven that for many using cannabis it is not as damaging as alcohol.

Would you feel the same way if your relative was an alcoholic, rather than having used cannabis? The major difference is one is illegal, and one isn’t.

With all due respect, it’s entirely possible your relative might have developed a psychotic mental health issue anyway.

Whilst I absolutely agree cannabis can have have catastrophic events on young growing brain, some additional research does show this is most likely in those people who have a “pre-disposition”, who might be likely to develop mental health issues with or without the use of cannabis.

Whilst I’m far from an “expert”, I did spend a day a week, for four years, working alongside drug rehab clinics, in two locations.

I was fortunate enough to learn a great deal about many drugs, both legal and illegal, and the effects that they have on the brain. I met a few people who became addicted to quite legal, prescribed, pain killers, it’s not all unusual.

Any kind of addiction alters the brain.

So, whilst you simply “blame” your relative, I don’t see things quite the same way.

Maybe that’s due to what I’ve seen, experienced and learned or perhaps I’m simply an empathic and compassionate human 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Why shouldn’t it? Universal Credit is a working benefit. Are you saying a care worker from overseas who needs help because they are being charged an extortionate rent isn’t entitled to it? A very large amount of UC is going straight into the pockets of wealthy landlords.

Dickens

Meandrogrog

We should already have decent public services given the amount of tax we all pay, its down to Government incompetence and money being wasted.

I agree, we should have decent public services. And cutting waste is obviously a damned good idea - in any department. But if you keep on cutting - cutting beyond the need to eliminate waste and start cutting staff again and again, to save money - but still expect to function adequately, well then you end up with what we have now - depleted services. Those cuts - Austerity - began in 2008. Labour - and I'm not 'flag-waving' for them - have had little time to turn things round, so the main 'incompetence lies with the government that insisted on those rounds of cuts.

How do we achieve systemic fairness? Given the strength of your feeling about this the expectation is that you have some good ideas. Do share.

They're not my ideas. A mixed economy is an established economic system. For brevity's sake - look at Norway (I worked there for 12 years). Norway is highly competitive in the market-place - it has a guiding principle which is, in simplified terms, that to get the best out of your workforce, you have to invest in them - with good public services that look after their health and welfare. It's that simple. Sure, Norwegians pay higher taxes, but what people ignore, is that wages are very much higher than here in the UK.
When my late partner and I returned home from Norway - we were considerably better off financially than when we emigrated. You can figure it out yourself.

Yes I was aware of the higher taxes as I have been on holiday to Norway. Its a beautiful country.

For the UK it would mean higher taxes, better services? But a good government that would ensure this happened. The general perception seems to be that too much gets wasted.

Cossy

“It’s been proved that smoking cannabis as a teenager can alter the growing brain, can you explain to me how that is not self inflicted please?“

I truly believe people with mental health issues should be supported and helped, with the management of their condition, whether “self-inflicted” or not, rather than judged.

There are so many cannabis users in this country, far more than you’d think, who hold down jobs at all levels and are high-functioning self-sufficient, responsible humans.

I accept for a small proportion, particularly boys, using cannabis can cause extreme psychotic reactions, when used before their brains have fully developed.

However this is normally caused by the very strong chemically altered batches, such as skunk.

It has been proven that for many using cannabis it is not as damaging as alcohol.

Would you feel the same way if your relative was an alcoholic, rather than having used cannabis? The major difference is one is illegal, and one isn’t.

With all due respect, it’s entirely possible your relative might have developed a psychotic mental health issue anyway.

Whilst I absolutely agree cannabis can have have catastrophic events on young growing brain, some additional research does show this is most likely in those people who have a “pre-disposition”, who might be likely to develop mental health issues with or without the use of cannabis.

Whilst I’m far from an “expert”, I did spend a day a week, for four years, working alongside drug rehab clinics, in two locations.

I was fortunate enough to learn a great deal about many drugs, both legal and illegal, and the effects that they have on the brain. I met a few people who became addicted to quite legal, prescribed, pain killers, it’s not all unusual.

Any kind of addiction alters the brain.

So, whilst you simply “blame” your relative, I don’t see things quite the same way.

Maybe that’s due to what I’ve seen, experienced and learned or perhaps I’m simply an empathic and compassionate human 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Cossy, where have I said that I judge or blame my relative? You accused me of making offensive comments about you but now you are doing the same to me. Please re read my post where I said that people with mental health issues should be fully supported but the best way of doing this in my opinion is with vouchers for food, utilities, rent etc

Your post comes across both as accusatory towards me and self congratulatory towards yourself.