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The Irish Question revisited

(253 Posts)
varian Wed 09-Jun-21 19:39:28

Brexit minister accuses EU of 'legal purism' over NI Protocol

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57378954

Presumable "legal purism" means keeping to your word and not reneging on a legal agreement you recently negotiated and signed.

The fact is that it was always going to be impossible to abide by the Good Friday Agreement and not have a border on the island of Ireland, whilst the Republic of Ireland remained in the EU but the UK left the EU and the Single Market, without having a border somewhere and if that border is not on the island of Ireland it has to be in the Irish Sea.

Many of us foresaw problems in NI because of Brexit years ago. Why could the Vote Leave Tory Government and the DUP not see what was blindingly obvious to us?

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1242729-The-Irish-question?pg=22

Kali2 Wed 09-Jun-21 20:01:13

It is very clear both Frost and Johnson were fully aware. So were Forster and Paisley too. And Poots (sp?)

varian Wed 09-Jun-21 23:10:12

"This line is that a requirement to comply with legal obligations is to be dismissed as ‘legal purism’.

This line is being promoted at the moment by Brexit minister Lord Frost in respect of the obligations of the United Kingdom under the Northern Irish Protocol (obligations that, of course, Frost himself negotiated and endorsed).

Frost avers that for the European Union to require the United Kingdom to comply with this obligations is to take a ‘purist’ approach."

davidallengreen.com

The EU has always expected third countries to comply with legal agreements. It is time that Frost realised that we are now a third country and if we do not behave honourable it will become more and more difficult to strike deals anywhere in the world as the UK is no longer regarded as trustworthy.

Grannycool52 Wed 09-Jun-21 23:17:28

Varian, I agree.

Bodach Wed 09-Jun-21 23:48:49

"The EU has always expected third countries to comply with legal agreements." But it doesn't necessarily apply the same standards to its own behaviour - as in its infamous (and thankfully short-lived) triggering of Article 16 recently.

Blinko Thu 10-Jun-21 07:57:51

This was always going to be a problem, as anyone with half a brain could foresee. Looks like they went for Brexit regardless, thinking no doubt that this issue could be blurred by some kind of sleight of hand later.

Demonstrably, it can't.

As has been said, the border must be either on the island of Ireland or in the Irish Sea.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:06:11

Biden is going to make a public speech in which amongst other things he is going to tell Johnson that he (Johnson) is messing around with peace in NI.

It seems that Johnson will be brought to heel as Biden is getting him to sign a bi- partite charter in which Johnson promises amongst other areas, to protect the GFA.

MawBe Thu 10-Jun-21 08:08:55

How do we feel about another country lecturing us about domestic matters?
We didn’t like it when Trump did it and while I have a lot of respect for Biden, it doesn’t sit too comfortably with me.

GrannyGravy13 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:12:16

Not comfortable with POTUS telling a UK PM how/what to do.
Many on GN would have been up in arms or alternatively laughing if POTUS Trump had waded in

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:13:50

GrannyGravy13

Not comfortable with POTUS telling a UK PM how/what to do.
Many on GN would have been up in arms or alternatively laughing if POTUS Trump had ^waded in^

True but beggars can’t be choosers can they?

Urmstongran Thu 10-Jun-21 08:16:10

Biden should butt out. It’s nothing to do with him. Can you imagine if Boris Johnson told him how to manage the border with Mexico?

It beggars belief.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:17:46

Also Biden is actually perfectly entitled to comment as the GFA is an international agreement and the USA had a large involvement in its construction.

Johnson breaks the law with impunity but when it comes to international law he is up against very powerful forces, so will have to toe the line unlike in the U.K. where he thumbs his nose at everyone, including Her Maj.

theworriedwell Thu 10-Jun-21 08:24:44

Thank God there are people in this world who don't fall for Johnson's bluff and bluster and intend to hold the line. Go Biden and the EU I hope you don't give him an inch, no make that a millimetre.

theworriedwell Thu 10-Jun-21 08:25:59

MawBe

How do we feel about another country lecturing us about domestic matters?
We didn’t like it when Trump did it and while I have a lot of respect for Biden, it doesn’t sit too comfortably with me.

We, the powerless, need some support and I welcome it.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:28:09

As it stands the U.K. has two choices, they either draw the border down the Irish Sea (which is where it is at the moment) or between Ireland and NI, which breaks the GFA.

We all new the effect of a border in the Irish Sea, this argument has been rehearsed since before the referendum.

Why Johnson/Cummings thought it would make no difference is simply not credible.

We know, as previous members of the economic block that it functions on strict and fair rules, so it is never going to bend these rules for a third country.

We signed up to this with Johnson’s “oven ready deal” in December 2019.

It is hoped that Biden can apply pressure to make Johnson see sense.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:30:28

MawBe

How do we feel about another country lecturing us about domestic matters?
We didn’t like it when Trump did it and while I have a lot of respect for Biden, it doesn’t sit too comfortably with me.

But you see it isn’t a domestic matter.

Biden would not be so stupid to meddle in a country’s domestic issue, but this is an international matter, and as co-signatory to the GFA he must advise etc.

Polarbear2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:32:58

I’m very comfortable with Biden bringing Johnson to heel. Extremely comfortable. I’m hoping he rips him to shreds in all honesty.

Lin52 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:34:16

Bodach

"The EU has always expected third countries to comply with legal agreements." But it doesn't necessarily apply the same standards to its own behaviour - as in its infamous (and thankfully short-lived) triggering of Article 16 recently.

People on here though will ignore the EU transgressions, as to them they do not matter.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:36:04

What transgressions?

theworriedwell Thu 10-Jun-21 08:37:50

Polarbear2

I’m very comfortable with Biden bringing Johnson to heel. Extremely comfortable. I’m hoping he rips him to shreds in all honesty.

If they sold tickets to watch that I'd pay, I bet they could raise enough money to make up the 0.7% for aid to the poorest in the world.

Casdon Thu 10-Jun-21 08:39:00

I think it’s long overdue for the UK Government to be called to account for selling Northern Ireland down the line to achieve Brexit. The combined efforts of Biden and the EU imposing what is already in the Brexit agreement and was signed up to should do the trick. I hope so for the sake of the NI citizens who are having a difficult time of it at the moment.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:41:17

Chickens and roost spring to mind

Lin52 Thu 10-Jun-21 08:51:41

Whitewavemark2

Also Biden is actually perfectly entitled to comment as the GFA is an international agreement and the USA had a large involvement in its construction.

Johnson breaks the law with impunity but when it comes to international law he is up against very powerful forces, so will have to toe the line unlike in the U.K. where he thumbs his nose at everyone, including Her Maj.

The USA also had a lot of involvement stirring the troubles, many supplying money for the IRA, and weapons. ˋThe peace in NI is threatened by paramilitary squads, and also by the success of the PCTF force successfully dealing with drug enforcement and criminals are exploiting political discontent for their own ends.‘ DW.

MaizieD Thu 10-Jun-21 08:56:56

If we put ourselves in a position where we are desperate for a trade deal with the US then we grovel to them.

I really don't understand why the people who voted to cut the UK adrift from its biggest trading partner and elected the world's foremost narcissistic liar to do the job are complaining. They are getting what they voted for. A diminished and demeaned country.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 10-Jun-21 09:00:41

The biggest issues are first the sanitary and photo sanitary controls, from which we all benefited from enormously as members of the economic block.

Johnson agreed that it would be imposed by 01/10/21.

This will be a killer for the meat, egg and diary trade.

It was all in the public domain before the referendum

“ project fear” was the reply. Frost must have been asleep when these argument were being thrashed out, as he is claiming that these arguments could not have been foreseen!! Really!?

The EU have suggest alignment with the EU rules, but of course this is anathema to Johnson.

The U.K. has muttered about unilaterally extending the grace period on the ban of processed chilled meat like mince or sausages.

This breach of EU rules would almost certainly lead to the EU taking the U.K. to arbitration or enforcing tariffs on U.K. goods entering the SM.

None of it has a good look for the U.K., as once again it is threatening to break international law.

Biden has already tweeted his concern at the U.K. breaking international law.

Let us hope Johnson learns this lesson.