Charlotte Dujardin

dragonfly46

Gin

The person speaking about the video was Dutch. I wonder if their team has hopes of medals? That is the only reason I can see to hold on to the tape for so long but I have no knowledge of the sport ( if it can be so described).

In 2012 we were at the Dressage event. Later our friends in the Netherlands accused Charlotte Dujardin of cheating as their rider came second. There was no way she could have cheated but the Dutch are very bad losers.
It is significant that the video has been released by the Dutch.

I believe the Dutch horse was the one tipped to get silver. Weren't they angry when Totilas was sold to a German who then went on to compete at another Olympic Games with him (albeit with less success). And wasn’t the Dutch training method for Totilas deemed to be cruel. He then set a standard that other dressage horses struggled to reach. Again I’m not excusing Charlotte for what she did but right from the start I’ve questioned why this was only brought to light now. I wish my friend was still alive who competed with her horses ( albeit not at a high level). Totilas made people not remotely interested in dressage go out of their way to watch it and even go to see him in competitions.

She isn't the first and won't be the last. German riders in show jumping (nails in the poles to make them jump higher) and dressage with the overbending use of the Rolkur - now forbidden. There is still an almighty 'smell' about how long it has taken to make this public - just before the Olympics - what better time for most publicity. I don't agree with what the video shows but I hate the timing if the person disagreed with the cruelty being filmed!

BlueBelle

I cannot stand horse racing, dog racing or any of the dreadful regimes that are around animals and sport
I m not horse mad, never been near one to be honest, never been near a bull but can’t abide the thought of bullfighting either, I m not dog mad but can’t stand seeing them made to stand on their hind legs or ‘ dance’ it’s not entertainment it’s cruelty

I saw these clips and I would love to slice that whip round her legs and see if she dances. I m glad she s been brought to task as for her saying that wasn’t her normal behaviour looked like she was very used to doing it the way she handled that whip I wish the horse had kicked her back

My thoughts exactly Bluebelle.
I hate all animal related sports. The poor creatures don’t have a say in the matter. It’s all about money. Heinous!!!

Would horses exist at all if they weren’t used for sport or recreational purposes? Now that we don’t use them for transport or war. A lot of retired racehorses go on to do dressage, eventing or team chasing. Whatever people think of animals being used in sport you don’t work with an animal that needs 24/7 care without caring for them.

Well yes, MayBe- unless they make you lots of money or give you fame and glory?

TanaMa

She isn't the first and won't be the last. German riders in show jumping (nails in the poles to make them jump higher) and dressage with the overbending use of the Rolkur - now forbidden. There is still an almighty 'smell' about how long it has taken to make this public - just before the Olympics - what better time for most publicity. I don't agree with what the video shows but I hate the timing if the person disagreed with the cruelty being filmed!

At any other time it would probably not have gained much attention. Been buried under other news and had little effect. Timing is spot on.

MayBee70

Would horses exist at all if they weren’t used for sport or recreational purposes? Now that we don’t use them for transport or war. A lot of retired racehorses go on to do dressage, eventing or team chasing. Whatever people think of animals being used in sport you don’t work with an animal that needs 24/7 care without caring for them.

And quite all end up in the knackers yard, or used to be the Hunt kennels, or shipped to France for meat.
No illusions here.

For goodness sake, I don’t really care about why or when the video was released, it’s just a divergence from the fact that Charlotte Dujardin was filmed abusing a horse and putting a rider at risk and she needs to explain herself to the FEI. The horse was clearly hurt, she was heard saying the whip ‘was crap at really hurting them’ - note she said them and not him, suggesting it was not a one off. Any other questions about this need to be addressed separately. If the evidence hadn’t existed no one would have been able to use it for ulterior motives or otherwise.

The amount of whataboutery and justification for what she did - all over social media - says all I need to know about the people doing it. And I believe Carl Hester is a signatory to a letter from the board members of the International Dressage Riders Club condemning Charlotte’s behaviour seen in the video, which says all I need to know about him as well.

Aveline

MaizieD the poor horse in the video winced and bucked. He'd plainly been hurt. I've not led a perfect life but I've never knowingly hurt any animal or person. I'm not famous and prize winning nor do I have sponsors or celebrity status to lose - but I still haven't done that.

Horses have very sensitive skins. Watch how they react when a fly lands on them. On the other hand, watch horses in a group exercising 'discipline', say, on a young horse. They kick and bite with no compunction and I can assure you that a kick or a bite from a horse is a very painful experience.

I have no doubt that some of the lashes from the whip landed, but the video was so poor that it was difficult so see just how many did' or how much force was behind them.

If anyone has a link to a nice clear copy I'd like to see it.

The reaction of the horse may, or may not, have been a reaction to pain, it could have been a similar reaction to a reaction to a fly (which a horse will attempt to kick off if it's on a reachable part of its body). I just don't know what the reality was.

What I do know is that it was a totally unproductive and pointless thing to do and Charlotte clearly lost her temper with the horse.. which is also a pointless and dangerous thing to do.

I hope that the FEI analyses that video very thoroughly and calls in as much evidence as they can. However, it's not a court of law.

She's been punished enough. She's lost her reputation completely. Most likely her livelihood too.

MayBee70

dragonfly46

Gin

The person speaking about the video was Dutch. I wonder if their team has hopes of medals? That is the only reason I can see to hold on to the tape for so long but I have no knowledge of the sport ( if it can be so described).

In 2012 we were at the Dressage event. Later our friends in the Netherlands accused Charlotte Dujardin of cheating as their rider came second. There was no way she could have cheated but the Dutch are very bad losers.
It is significant that the video has been released by the Dutch.

I believe the Dutch horse was the one tipped to get silver. Weren't they angry when Totilas was sold to a German who then went on to compete at another Olympic Games with him (albeit with less success). And wasn’t the Dutch training method for Totilas deemed to be cruel. He then set a standard that other dressage horses struggled to reach. Again I’m not excusing Charlotte for what she did but right from the start I’ve questioned why this was only brought to light now. I wish my friend was still alive who competed with her horses ( albeit not at a high level). Totilas made people not remotely interested in dressage go out of their way to watch it and even go to see him in competitions.

Totilas is a very interesting point as regards training methods, MayBee. He very definitely went downhill with the German rider, he lost his freedom of action, became very tense and tight and displayed signs of being stringently 'retrained'.

I know there was talk of his Dutch rider using Rolkur, but his self carriage,freedom and ability to relax at that time says to me that it's use must have been minimal, if at all. I think the German was more likely to have used it...

I thought his decline was very, very sad...

She wanted to hurt the horse. She implied as much by what she said about the whip. The horse appeared confused, afraid and was clearly trying to get away from her and her whip. She’s lucky he didn’t go for her, and the rider is lucky he didn’t explode.

I used to like and admire her. I’ve seen her live on more than one occasion and I liked the way she spoke about her horses and the training methods she used (obviously not all of them judging by this). I never thought she had the finesse of Carl Hester but she certainly achieved results - but then I think Carl Hester is motivated by different things. I think she probably started like all of us with a love for horses, but somewhere along the way forgot that - whether the success, adulation, power went to her head and her drive to win at all costs made her forget what was important - I don’t know, but hopefully she will learn from this. Too many things in equestrian sport have been ignored and gone unpunished for too long, it wouldn’t be a bad thing if this shone a light on all the cruelty that exists at the very highest levels of the equestrian world, where people should know better and should be setting an example.

👍

I said before, either on this thread or the other one, that this could well be the equestrian world's #MeToo moment - which can only be a good thing for everyone involved, humans and animals alike.

MaizieD

Aveline

MaizieD the poor horse in the video winced and bucked. He'd plainly been hurt. I've not led a perfect life but I've never knowingly hurt any animal or person. I'm not famous and prize winning nor do I have sponsors or celebrity status to lose - but I still haven't done that.

Horses have very sensitive skins. Watch how they react when a fly lands on them. On the other hand, watch horses in a group exercising 'discipline', say, on a young horse. They kick and bite with no compunction and I can assure you that a kick or a bite from a horse is a very painful experience.

I have no doubt that some of the lashes from the whip landed, but the video was so poor that it was difficult so see just how many did' or how much force was behind them.

If anyone has a link to a nice clear copy I'd like to see it.

The reaction of the horse may, or may not, have been a reaction to pain, it could have been a similar reaction to a reaction to a fly (which a horse will attempt to kick off if it's on a reachable part of its body). I just don't know what the reality was.

What I do know is that it was a totally unproductive and pointless thing to do and Charlotte clearly lost her temper with the horse.. which is also a pointless and dangerous thing to do.

I hope that the FEI analyses that video very thoroughly and calls in as much evidence as they can. However, it's not a court of law.

An internet friend of mine has watched it several times. I think she said ( I need to check) that she was just flicking it’s hooves to make it raise its legs more and there were three flicks that she felt went too far. Just remember the horse was heavily bandaged on all four legs so any contact wouldn’t incur any damage. The video does make it look as if she’s repeatedly whipping the horses legs. I’d be interested to know what training methods the Spanish riding school use. Again I’m not condoning what she did but I do think the amount of vitriol against her is unfair. If she was involved in horse charities she’s probably done a lot more for horses in general than most of us have. And yet again I’m probably in denial because I was so looking forward to the dressage.

It's unsettling for all sports involving animals - forces people to confront unpalatable (to say the least) truths.

Maybee I admire your loyalty to her but there’s no way anyone uses two hands to ‘flick a horse’s hooves’. In fact I’ve never seen anyone use two hands on a lungeing whip before. And bandages or not, I doubt she had the precision to know exactly where the thong of that whip would land and the power with which she was wielding it meant she intended it to hurt - in fact she said as much. There’s absolutely no way of justifying this.

And yet again I’m probably in denial because I was so looking forward to the dressage

I'm looking forward to the dressage< MayBee to see how many overbent, tense horses compete and get good marks for poorly performed movements... there's a problem with judging standards as well as with abusive training methods...

Your internet friend's comments are interesting. I hadn't picked up on the bandages. The horse would only feel something if the lash made contact on the legs above the bandages.

nightowl, a horse wouldn't feel anything that landed on its hooves... they are thick horn with no nerves in them.

When did Charlotte say that she intended to hurt the horse? Was it in the video? I can't make out any speech in it but perhaps I don't have my volume high enough.

She was filmed hurting it.
No need for her to say it.

It's clear for those who want to see it.

MaizieD

^And yet again I’m probably in denial because I was so looking forward to the dressage^

I'm looking forward to the dressage< MayBee to see how many overbent, tense horses compete and get good marks for poorly performed movements... there's a problem with judging standards as well as with abusive training methods...

Your internet friend's comments are interesting. I hadn't picked up on the bandages. The horse would only feel something if the lash made contact on the legs above the bandages.

I definitely didn't like how she was using the whip but actually hadn't thought about the bandaging. Having looked at the video again it's clear there is gamgee under the bandages, you can see the white line above the bandage. The horses legs would have been very well padded. I still don't approve of the use of the whip but I doubt the horse actually felt any pain.

Dressage so unnatural for horses … so why do it!

Yes. That’s why I said earlier is it the judging standard that was raised so high due to Totilas, like Charlotte, finding everything so easy and achieving things that others couldn’t. But were then expected to.

I agree sodapop. Also why is it ok to whip a horse in a horse race but not in dressage? What’s the difference? Could it by chance, be money?

If her use of the whip was not hurting the horse (as it had bandages on) why did Charlotte apologise? She obviously felt that there was something to apologise for. And as for the timing of the disclosure of the video - it has obviously been disclosed now to gain the most publicity and most probably to eliminate the competition. At the end of the day, she has missed out on the chance to compete and Charlotte has only herself to blame and no one else.