Charlotte Dujardin

Maizie do you think anyone could accurately aim a lunging whip - around 5 foot long with a 5 foot lash - so that the end of the lash landed accurately on the horses hooves, from behind where the amount of horn is minuscule as the hoof tapers to the heel bulbs which are not covered in horn and are very sensitive, because I would say it is a physical impossibility to be that precise. She was wielding the whip from the back, then the front, with one hand, then two, she was quite literally all over the place with no clear aim in any sense of the word.

Charlotte said ‘this is so shit at hitting them hard’ which I didn’t pick up either but has been widely reported, and once you read it you can actually hear it. To my mind it implies an intention for the hit to hurt and certainly doesn’t imply ‘flicking’. As I think you have said, (apologies if it wasn’t you), a horse’s skin is sensitive enough to feel a fly land, so there’s no doubt that a whip lash will hurt and only the lower part of the leg was bandaged.

Anyway, we can go backwards and forwards on this all day. I would love to believe that she intended nothing but good by waving that whip around but I can’t see anything but deliberate abuse, and she has admitted it was wrong.

And what if the people outing her also used similar methods but were more careful about being filmed? From my limited knowledge I assume the whole point of a lunging whip is the cracking noise it makes, it isn’t meant to have contact with the horse. Do dressage riders use spurs? I think they use them in polo?

Sparklefizz

Charleygirl5

I cannot watch horse racing because I cannot stand seeing the poor animals whipped.

I am the same.
I can't stand seeing animals being "trained" to do any "tricks" or "unusual behaviour" at all.

Me too.
Let animals have their dignity I say.
I know there's no real harm in it , but I don't even like seeing dogs and cats dressed up in funny hats etc.
I'm not "horsey" because I'm frightened of them but I still think that they are beautiful , sensitive creatures .
When I found out how horses are"trained" for dressage I felt disgusted.
My own late beloved dog did not like anyone even touching his legs. Tie them up and make him hop ????
Good luck with that , mate.
He'd soon have sorted out Mme Dujardin and her whip.

MayBee70

Yes. That’s why I said earlier is it the judging standard that was raised so high due to Totilas, like Charlotte, finding everything so easy and achieving things that others couldn’t. But were then expected to.

Totilas wsan't perfect but I know what you mean.

You might find both these videos interesting:

The first is about judges' marking

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMiavT1RXhY

The second is about Totilas

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK3TzBuGN0w

Warning. They're both long and technical...

When I found out how horses are"trained" for dressage I felt disgusted.

As I've said elsewhere on these threads, please don't assume that everyone who takes part in dressage is using cruel methods. Even children do dressage at Pony Club level - I did, as did my daughter. My DiL competes in dressage with one of her horses. None of us ever used any kind of cruel training methods - and I can assure you that no whips were involved.

Thanks for your explanation about dressage MissInterpreted

I’m always amazed with dressage how they remember what to do. Same with showjumping.

Anyway, we can go backwards and forwards on this all day. I would love to believe that she intended nothing but good by waving that whip around but I can’t see anything but deliberate abuse, and she has admitted it was wrong.

We certainly could, nightowl, but I think it's time we left it. Just a few remarks and I've done.

I have repeatedly said that what she was doing was inappropriate. She lost her temper. All I am querying is what can actually be clearly seen on the video. I can't see where the lash is actually landing. Perhaps I need SpecSavers...

I did make the point about horse's skin sensitivity, but also that they can survive bites and kicks when being disciplined by other horses (mostly as youngsters being kept in order by their elders) However I say this isn't going to be much liked, but what they can accept from another horse is far worse than what Charlotte was doing, We are in danger of over projecting what we would feel on to the horse..

There is some very real cruelty in some training methods, which causes continual stress and hurt to the horse and permanently damage its trust in its rider. This video shows the lower end of the abuse that goes on.

Oreo

Thanks for your explanation about dressage MissInterpreted

Yes , thank you, Missinterpreted.
I still don't like the idea of animals performing.
Re horses , I'm not sure why such enormous , potentially dangerous animals submit to us at all ??
As I say I see these as beautiful , sensitive creatures , although I don't ride, but because of their size and construction and sometimes frankly wrong interactions, forced by humans, with humans they can , because of no fault of their own, be dangerous to us.

MayBee70

I’m always amazed with dressage how they remember what to do. Same with showjumping.

I was lucky in that respect, I've got the kind of mind which can remember a showjumping course or dressage test easily. And the tests I did were much simpler than what you see on TV now. My poor daughter was less fortunate - I used to have to go over the test with her time and time again before she'd remember it. She was better at remembering showjumping courses, but she enjoyed that, cross country and gymkhana events more than dressage anyway. We had several kids at our stables who were dyslexic, but fortunately the Pony Club allowed them to have their test read out on the day.

I can’t read maps so I think I’ve got some form of map dyslexia. And DH can drive us somewhere dozens of times and I still can’t remember the route. I’m kind of ok going left left and left but when I then have to then go right my brain is scrambled.

You can always have your tests read, even at a fairly high level of affiliated dressage. My DD hated having a test read to her, she's always memorised them.

The memory 'tests that astonished me were the 'hazards' in carriage driving contests. Every single one of them was almost as complex as an entire show jumping course! And looked impossible to negotiate with a single horse and vehicle, let alone a team of four horses...😱

Yes, that must be quite the skill. Incidentally, my DiL (who does dressage on her own horse) has a friend who does dressage (as well as show jumping and cross-country) on an 18-hand plus Clydesdale. It's quite a sight.

Her behaviour and attitude towards horses is typical of horsey people. They bully the poor animals into submission to get what they wanted.Sorry to those who buck that trend (pun intended!) I'm sure there are more gentle horse owners/carers of course. The cruelty shown by this female looks to be well practiced. Theres no way it was a one off.

Freshair

Her behaviour and attitude towards horses is typical of horsey people. They bully the poor animals into submission to get what they wanted.Sorry to those who buck that trend (pun intended!) I'm sure there are more gentle horse owners/carers of course. The cruelty shown by this female looks to be well practiced. Theres no way it was a one off.

That's not typical of the 'horsey people' I know, and have known over the years. Yes, there are some like that - but most genuinely do care for their horses and would never be cruel to them.

I know that’s what you were querying Maizie and I agree that the video is not clear. I’ve watched it several times and also tried to find out elsewhere what was said, but I’m still not entirely sure (other than the one sentence which I think is accurate).

I agree that horses do worse things to one another, but I think that’s herd dynamics and I think that the dynamic with humans is very different. We have to be careful to make them our partners and not our slaves.

I also agree that there are others in the horse world who have done and continue to do worse and get away with it, but what Charlotte did was still not acceptable. Sadly, I think she’s suffering such a backlash simply because she was so admired. The higher they rise, the further they fall.

Several of my horsey friends have ended up divorced because they put their horses before everything and the commitment to a horse is far more than even having a dog. Added to which when you’re not with them you’re worrying about colic (my worst fear) being cast in their box, field accident, stolen etc etc Plus the fact that they live a long time and a lot of that time is in retirement. A retired or unsound horse costs as much to look after as a young, sound one.

MissInterpreted

Freshair

Her behaviour and attitude towards horses is typical of horsey people. They bully the poor animals into submission to get what they wanted.Sorry to those who buck that trend (pun intended!) I'm sure there are more gentle horse owners/carers of course. The cruelty shown by this female looks to be well practiced. Theres no way it was a one off.

That's not typical of the 'horsey people' I know, and have known over the years. Yes, there are some like that - but most genuinely do care for their horses and would never be cruel to them.

Same for me. I rode till my early 60’s my daughters rode, my granddaughter is riding now. I agree with Freshair the behaviour shown looks practised and the way she spoke about the horse and lunging whip did her no favours.
But, I’ve never seen cruelty at the riding schools or pony club events/camps we’ve been involved with.
Horsey people tend to love horses. There will be some bullies, abusive people in the horsey world just as there are in the ordinary world

Dressage is no more than circus tricks. Of course there is suffering involved in making animals do ludicrous unnatural acts for public entertainment.
It’s no more a sport than poodles standing on their back legs.

Should be a lifetime ban. What a horrible woman !

Honestly there's a lot of rubbish on this thread. Dressage= training=safe riding horse. Even horses that aren't ridden need to be trained so they can be handled safely. Horses are not gentle kind animals, they are big flight animals that live in herds and

Sent too soon! Sort themselves out into a pecking order by working out which is the top and which is the bottom and where they are in that mix. I wonder if some of the posters have ever handled or ridden a horse.

There's been a lot in the news about the reasons why the person who filmed this has waited so long to report it. IMO this is a complete irrelevance, whatever their reasons the fact remains that the horse was badly mistreated and Dujardin deserves to be censored.

Have you ever kept a hamster, a ferret, or had a tropical fish tank?
I think you would still be able to decide what is cruel if you visited someone that was mistreating them.

Whipping a horse is cruel.
That's all people need to know, and a four year old would recognise that.

Thanks for your response at 17.49, nightowl. It is good to know that some others recognise that there is some nuance to this sad episode.