Estrangement / Cut off Mum

N is doing the same sort of thing on another thread.

As are you. Questioning, while not trying to understand why under 40's hate toxic behaviour.

My experience of most under 40`s is that they dislike unkind, selfish behaviour in anyone - including their contemporaries (just as most over 40`s do)

The question is what is unkind or selfish in regard to a CO of toxic ? My under 40's are very kind and unselfish, but they don't condone toxic behaviour.

Wabisabi - Thank you for your insightful comments. I know women who have difficulties with their AC and thought it might be an interesting or useful topic and did not think that people might be judgemental. Would this possibly something to bring up in a new discussion?

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thank you Wabisabi. It sounds as if this is not a subject appropriate to bring up. I think it's a shame as there are people in this position and, like everyone else, would welcome support or advice.

Norah "The question is what is unkind or selfish in regard to a CO of toxic"; nothing.

Another question: what is unkind or selfish about CO someone who isn't toxic? Everything.

You asked me why I'd referred to be a loving, supportive and caring mother if no pay back was expected. Well sadly many of the posts on this and other threads answer that question; we're referred too as toxic.

We've been CO because we're toxic. We're not allowed to see our GC because they need to be protected from us because we're toxic. Presumably the AC we continue to have a healthy relationship with, our families who incidentally a lot of these AC also CO and our friends are totally blind to our toxic natures which is why they continue to see us.

Oh Smileless these accusations are all getting a bit wearisome aren`t they. We shouldn`t have to keep defending ourselves when we know we haven`t done anything wrong. We aren`t in denial or stupid - we know what went on in our children`s childhoods. We know they were happy. We know that for many of us everything was fine until a partner came along - and we know that we treated that partner well and did all we could to welcome them into our families. I am so thankful that I have good friends (in real-life and here) who know exactly what has gone on and would never ever blame me for what has happened).

Smileless2012 "Presumably the AC we continue to have a healthy relationship with, our families who incidentally a lot of these AC also CO and our friends are totally blind to our toxic natures which is why they continue to see us."

You've a valid point.

All AC view their childhood differently, one from another.

Once grown an AC may not like how they were raised or their relationship with their parents and view it toxic, whilst their db or ds may view healthy.

The AC who views childhood through a toxic lens is now happily CO from parents and family.

This is a good thing, mental health of our AC is important.

Norah - what happens if you yourself become "toxic"

If children do indeed copy their parents' behaviour, you could find yourself in lots of trouble 20 years from now.

You might have become "toxic".

Their mental health is very important, is what they have been taught. So you may be left.

Ankers "Norah - what happens if you yourself become "toxic"."

"If children do indeed copy their parents' behaviour, you could find yourself in lots of trouble 20 years from now. You might have become "toxic"."

I may have dementia when I am 92 (20 years from now). I hope I'm normal until then.

Let's have a TOXIC *PARTY ladies!

I've got a fair-sized hotel balcony here. It's very warm, although thunderstorms rattling around (Durban). It'll accommodate a good few of,us.

SO

I'll bring the wine. We can drink to excess, swear and beat each other up.

Yay - we'll be truly toxic!

Did I miss something? Who said that children copy their parents behaviour
I certainly never copied mine. Perish the thought!!

Thanks, but I'll continue to skip toxicity.

I'll wait for dementia, as I age, instead.

Moira, I know someone who co one of her sons and his wife because of their difficult, controlling behavior. There are gc involved and she misses them terribly. But she says she hardly got to see them, anyway, and it was the price she had to pay for her sanity.

I really do think young people today define "respect" differently than older people and react more seriously to lack of respect. They are less likely to think they should have to follow their parents' or pils ideas or seek their advice just because they respect them. Also, I think they are more likely to expect older people to respect their choices and not criticize them, etc. The young are more liable, too, it seems, to co people they feel are disrespecting them and to do it more fully - no visits, no phone calls, no gifts, no photos, etc. I don't believe most older people think a co out that thoroughly.

Fairydoll2030

Nice weather.

It's 8* at our vacation bungalow. So much for a warm break for GC.

community.babycenter.com/post/a65697076/why-cant-co-people-have-access-to-children.

Norah What on earth is the point being made about under 40's not liking toxic behaviour ...like some amorphous mass of "under 40ism"! Are we to assume that the amorphous mass of over 40's love/like toxic behaviour? Am I missing something here?

I posted my opinion. My under 40's have a different view of what is respectful, decent, and courteous than do their elders. Not negative, they won't put up with BSC toxic behavior.

You still haven't enlightened us as to how your under- 40's define respect courtesy and decency though norah.
Where does tolerance come into the mix?
Or is that a quality that you didn't bother teaching them?

Starlady we miss our ES and our GC every day and although we were finding his wife's difficult and controlling behaviour hard to deal with, we weren't fully aware of just how bad she was until after we were cut out.

I fully understand where your friend's coming from. For the sake of our sanity, we could never have anything to do with her again. Walking on egg shells, minding ones p's and q's and never knowing from one day to the next if you were friend or foe would be intolerable.

Sounds great Fairlydoll. Hope the balcony will be big enough as there seems to be an awful lot of toxic P's and GP's here on GN. You supply theand I'll bring the boxing gloves or should we go for bare knuckle fighting instead.

janeainsworth "You still haven't enlightened us as to how your under- 40's define respect courtesy and decency though norah."

They expect their decisions and choices to go without question, they expect to do as they wish with their children without any "guidance" or "help".

They will not accept drop in visits, people asking themselves over, or being harassed to see or hold their baby.

They definitely feel I raised them and now it's their turn to raise using their methods.

Decency holds no expectation of putting up with the intolerable.

Nor does courtesy (politeness) require subjection to the intolerable toxicity (smoking, drinking, swearing, screaming, or abusive behaviours).

"Where does tolerance come into the mix?"
"Or is that a quality that you didn't bother teaching them?"

My children are very tolerant of that which deserves such.

Toxic behaviour doesn't deserve tolerance.

Thanks for asking.

I am normally just a lurker on the estrangement threads. However, reading them in their entirety, one thing is glaringly obvious. Whilst those grandparents who are cut off from their grandchildren appear to always be ready to listen to the reasons given, show empathy, and admit that in some cases it is understandable, the same cannot be said for those who have resorted to no contact. Indeed every grandparent in this situation is toxic...according to their indisputable knowledge, gained it would seem in the main from reading "case histories" of others on the internet, and books written for monetary gain. If they were as sure of their actions as they claim to be, they would not need validation from others. As far as I can see, nowhere has it been said that of course there are scenarios where families are ripped apart when they attempt to welcome a newcomer, who turns out to be....yes you got it....TOXIC! There are equally as many forums and books written on this subject.

The sheer arrogance of some of the posts makes me laugh and cry, in equal measure. Cry because of the knowledge of the pain of a previously loving close knit family being destroyed. Laughing because, if life has taught me one thing, it is that where human emotions are concerned, there are absolutely no guarantees. Children who are being deprived of contact with family will want to know their roots when they are old enough...it's human nature...and may well find that they disagree with what their controlling parents said and did.