Estrangement / Cut off Mum

Smileless, you're basically saying the same thing my friend says - as much as she misses her ds and gc, the situation was becoming too "intolerable" (yes, she uses that exact same word) to bear.

Perhaps we need a definition of "toxic?" One that we can all agree on?

As far as ac protecting their kids from gps who are known to spank, etc. does that really mean the ac have to co? Can't they just decide not to let those gps babysit or be alone with their kids? Not everything has to be a total co, imo.

Good posts Starlady. I think we all agree what toxic means it's just that some posters are more than willing to accept that some P's and GP's can be toxic, but are not as willing to accept that some AC and/or their partners can be toxic too.

Perhaps we should define what is meant by smacking and spanking. For me a smack on the back of the hand is just that a smack and I don't consider that to be abusive; spanking is more severe and not something I'd subscribe too. That said, had I been given the opportunity to look after my GC and smacking was not approved of by their parents, I wouldn't have done so.

Maybe it's just me but when the word abuse is used, I don't just think about smacking, I think of some of the terrible things that adults do to children. The phrase 'protecting children from abusive parents and GP's' has been used over and over again in discussions about estrangement.

As an estranged P and GP I find this greatly offensive, the implication that I abused my children and would abuse my GC so they have to be protected from me. Is it just a coincidence that having recently challenged a poster for this terminology, the use of abuse which has not previously been qualified is now said to be referring to smacking?

Good morning from across the pond. DH and I are home from five weeks of no worries and responsibilities. We both needed that time and I didn't fall into any boats. A shark was circling our boat and that was creepy. Mom did not go into the hospital this time so that helped. But we are both sick with terrible colds and coughs so I have been inside for a week. I have had a lot of time to think about estrangement and I realize that whatever excuse our EC have for their behavior is only justifiable to them. They make up excuses in their heads to make their action of estrangement okay. If they couldn't justify their feelings of guilt they wouldn't be estranged. I grew up in a generation where it was okay to spank your children on their bottoms. My mom slapped me once when, at sixteen, I called her the b word.My dad twice on my bottom. Did I estrange myself from them? No. But yet my DH was told by a counselor to take a wooden spoon and spank his son on the bottom as he was always making trouble. My DH said his X at the time ( who was a social worker) was fine with it. It happened several times and that was it. My DH apologized to his ES twenty years ago for being given bad advice. So now thirty five years later he remembers those few incidents and decided to not talk to us all of a sudden even after he and his dad had a discussion and apology about it. Today's generation does not believe in spanking but to call it abuse is ridiculous. When my mom was growing up people got their children off the bottle by souring their milk. Was that abusive? I am all for estranging yourself from abuse when a child is molested or beaten but really a few slaps on the bottom or hand?
Just another excuse to justify the estrangement.

That sounds like abuse.

Great to see you back on GN Rhinestone glad you enjoyed your holiday and that you managed to not fall into any boats.

Am I right that your DH's ES has rebuked his father for the way he was punished, even though he's received an apology and explanation for what took place? Has he said this why he's severed contact?

Parenting has without doubt changed over the years but as you say, because something was acceptable then but isn't acceptable now, doesn't mean it was abusive behaviour.

TBH I think the over use of 'abusive behaviour' whenever estrangement is being discussed demonstrates a lack of forethought by some posters. Perhaps when a P and GP is discussing their own situation, asserting that they've done nothing wrong and this is responded too by a post arguing an AC's right to protect their children from abuse, they don't realise that they are implying that the P they're responding too abused their child.

A horrible accusation to make even if done so by implication.

Starlady: "Perhaps we need a definition of "toxic?" One that we can all agree on?"

My definition of 'toxic' has little to do with smacking/spanking - more to do with emotional abuse i.e. regular or constant belittling, manipulating and controlling others, 'blanking' (refusing to speak to) people who disagree with/don't comply with a person, being constantly needy and putting their own needs first.

Anyone can behave in this way - a husband or wife in a relationship, a parent to their child or adult child, an adult child to their parent.

There are people now who would still justify hitting children with objects as punishment. There were people then who would never dream of it. An apology that they had 'bad advice' can't undo the damage.

I agree with your definition of toxic FightingEstrangement and would just add lying.

I agree that an apology "can't undo the damage" but it doesn't necessarily justify estrangement. Rhinestone's DH was given this unfortunate advice by a counselor, a trained professional and sought the advice of his wife at the time, the child's mother who was a social worker, a trained professional. No, that doesn't absolve him of all responsibility but it does go some way to explaining why he took the course of action that he did.

Perhaps, without the advice given by the counselor and the support from his wife at the time, a social worker, he wouldn't have considered disciplining his son in that way.

If this is the reason his son's given for their estrangement, for his refusal to have anything whatsoever to do with his father, I wonder how his son would feel if at some time in the future, one of his children has an issue with the way s/he was parented, despite it being recommended by a professional and cuts him out of his/her life?

I'm sure there are happy, loving families where those kind of 'discipline' was used that are still in contact. Maybe this wasn't a happy family?

Smileless, yes, lying, and also (and this is genuinely a trait, not me being mardy!): selective amnesia i.e. believing certain things didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way they actually did - generally in relation to the person's own behaviour e.g. "I never said that".

Oh yes FE (hope you don't mind my shortening your name) you're quite right, I'd forgotten about that one.

Well Gooddaughter Rhinestone's been posting on GN,and the other thread on estrangement for some time now and there's never been any indication that they weren't a happy family. As with so many of us, after many happy years of our parent/child relationships, we suddenly became disposable.

Do happy families go to a counsellor because a child is 'always making trouble.' Do they repeatedly hit a child with an object and when apologising blame it on 'bad advice'?

There are lots of estranged parents. There must be some that are estranged because their children or D/SIL have behaved badly and are self absorbed individuals who through ill health or personality are incapable of seeing the other person's point of view. There must also be some who are the self absorbed ones and their children have cut them off as a result. Life is rarely that black and white though. Surely the majority must, like all failed relationships, share the 'blame' for the breakdown equally with their children. Misunderstanding, things said that shouldn't have been or vice versa, outside circumstances adding pressure etc. When people say that they are entirely without fault it's very hard to believe anything else they say. We all have faults. We all hurt the people we love from time to time.

A difficult child may will put pressure on a family Gooddaughter but it doesn't necessarily mean that the family is an unhappy one. Rhinestone didn't say her DH repeatedly hit his son with an object she said it happened "several times", for me repeatedly is more often/frequent than several.

A responsible father seeks help from a professional counselor to help him manage the difficult behaviour his son is exhibiting. He regrets following the advice he was given by this professional that was supported by the social worker he was married to at the time. This isn't a man with a bad temper and no self control who "repeatedly hit (his) child with an object" because he couldn't be bothered to find another way.

Deciding to estrange yourself from not just your parents but your entire family is a huge step to take. Of course "life is rarely black and white". I guess you must "find it very hard to believe anything (I) say" because our estrangement is neither mine nor my husband's fault. We do not "share the 'blame' for the breakdown equally with" our son. No we weren't, aren't and never will be perfect parents. Our ES isn't a perfect son; I can't bring myself to say he never was because in reality he was the best that any parent could have wished for; he was that way for 27 years.

Yes, we all have faults; yes we all hurt the people we love from time to time, that is the nature of relationships. It is also the nature of relationships to forgive one another.

When we saw that our relationship with our son and his wife was deteriorating we tried desperately to find out why, so we could stop doing anything they didn't want us to do and start doing what they did want. It was all to no avail because they weren't prepared to try and resolve any of the issues they had which incidentally, we still don't know what those issues are. Once they'd finished with their lies told to justify their behaviour, all we heard afterwards was that our ES has 'issues'.

Their failure to even try to deal with the situation led to the estrangement. They didn't want to try and heal the relationship, they wanted out so no, we are not responsible, they are. This is what they wanted and there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it.

Starlady "As far as ac protecting their kids from gps who are known to spank, etc. does that really mean the ac have to co? Can't they just decide not to let those gps babysit or be alone with their kids? Not everything has to be a total co, imo."

Some AC don't want to be near their abusers, it's too stressful and painful. So they CO their abusers and protect their kids with a CO too. And yes, spanking is abuse in many minds.

Each AC defines abuse and toxicity their own way.

I see I posted this in the wrong discussion.

Gooddaughter "Surely the majority must, like all failed relationships, share the 'blame' for the breakdown equally with their children. Misunderstanding, things said that shouldn't have been or vice versa, outside circumstances adding pressure etc. When people say that they are entirely without fault it's very hard to believe anything else they say."

Well done. There are always 3-6 sides, ways of looking at things. His side, her side, their side, with and without blinkers or outside opinions.

Perhaps you should try removing your blinkers Araabra

"Perhaps you should try removing your blinkers Araabra"

I'm afraid that would require far more introspection than she appears capable of Smileless. Like you, I know deep in my heart who I am, and always have been, as a parent. I refuse to allow anyone to doubt that. I am dealing with enough heartbreak, caused by someone I welcomed with open arms. Braggarts on the internet will never come close to that with their uncompassionate views.

GrannyRainbow. I wonder how often that is overlooked, never considered. "someone I welcomed with open arms" and an open heart. We loved our d.i.l. and her betrayal of us was heartbreaking.

So yours is one of the cases where it is the result of one person causing the damage Smileless2012. That doesn't mean every case of estrangement is so one sided.

Of course not every case of estrangement is one sided GoodDaughter and I'm confident that when I discuss estrangement I always stress that I'm speaking from my own personal experience. In my experience it is the result of one person causing the damage but I'm fully aware that it isn't that way in every case.

Gooddaughter

I doubt very much that any case of estrangement is one sided. Everyone has their own ego at play.

I was watching some of my GC argue about legos earlier today. They each insisted the other was wrong. Each in their own way was right and each in their own way was wrong.

If life was always dealt with fair hands how lovely that would be.

Norah I'm sorry I'm not being obtuse here ..what do you mean by "my under 40's?" Your children, people you know ....???

My under 40's are my ac under 40.

I feel they, as a generation view things differently than my over 40's.

Just an observation.

If you have adult children under 40 and over 40 they are all part of the same generation and 40 is an arbitrary
meaningless figure.