Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support.

Meant to say in my above post about the children, there are many things that happen to kids that they don't get a say over, such as divorce, etc. Yes, sometimes we talk about its being hard on them, particularly since they don't get a say. But no one goes around wringing their hands and crying, "Oh, dear! The children didn't get to weigh in on the divorce! The decision was made for them!"

So I understand feeling a little bit bad that the kids are denied access to their GPs or other family without their having any input. But acting as if it's unacceptable for them not to get to weigh in on this major decision? It just seems a little over the top to me.

As for Coleman's advice, it sounds good to me. There's a point where one just has to stop trying, I think, and give the younger couple - and yourself - some space and start moving on with life, etc. One of my friends who is cod from her ds and family has already done this. Another one of them should, imo, but just isn't ready yet, I guess. The third stopped too soon, imo. She didn't try a simple apology or make any effort to change her bossy ways - keeps saying she "doesn't know" what happened even though her ds made it quite clear. But that's just how I (and our other friends) see it. Of course, she has to make the decision for herself.

Iv been doing some reading on MN though, and one thing Iv seen a few times is that they don't see an apology as sincere if the gp says, "I'm sorry for whatever I did." They see that as a failure to admit to the specific wrongdoing, it seems, and an effort to brush it under the rug. They seem to have trouble believing that the gp really doesn't know what went wrong, even if gp genuinely doesn't.

So Idk if Coleman's, "I did something that hurt you... I honestly don't know what it is" would pass muster either with some young parents. It sounds sincere enough to me, but Idk how it would be received. Of course, not every young parent is the same, and neither is every cod gp. So maybe it would work for some families.

Actually Starlady I feel more than "a little bad" that my grandchildren are being denied access to me without their feelings being taken into account.
Is it fair that you have an 8 year old wanting very much to come to a family get-together and being told by his mother "No you can`t, because I say so". This is when his father wanted to bring him and was told that if he did that she would contact the police

Thanks NorahI've now managed to read the articles.

I don't think that saying to an EC "I'm sorry for whatever I did" is a failure to admit specific wrongdoing Starlady when the EP hasn't the faintest idea what they have done wrong to be CO.

Possibly due to the way they were received in some quarters, the lies that were banded about at the beginning of our estrangement have never been repeated so we still don't know why and TBH after 4+ years I'm no longer interested.

IMO AC who've CO their parents for no real reason aren't interested in apologies; they just don't want them around anymore.

We stopped trying some time ago and I believe we did the right thing for us but everyone's different and no size fits all. Your friend was CO because she's bossynow that's what I call an OTT reaction and says more about her AC than it does about her poor woman.

Sorry, Eddie, forgot the context. I was looking at it as if the suggestion was that kids should be consulted in general about these decisions. ("Kids, should we go nc or lc?") Of course, parents sometimes do say 'no" to a child even when they want something very much. But to say no to gs' attending an event? I don't see that. It's not as if he would be going alone or with strangers. He would be with his dad, etc.

Dil will probably hear about this from gs someday ("You didn't let me go to Aunt's wedding, just because you don't like...!") Wonder what she'll say?

"I don't think that saying to an EC "I'm sorry for whatever I did" is a failure to admit specific wrongdoing Starlady when the EP hasn't the faintest idea what they have done wrong to be CO."

I agree. But from what I see on MN a lot of ac and cil view it as a "fake apology," unfortunately.

Of course, if a gp really doesn't know what they did, Idk what else they can say. "I apologize for whatever..." is probably worth trying - some ac/cil will accept it, I'm sure - but I think a gp has to be prepared for the fact that they might not.

Oh, meant to add, they might not accept any apology, as you suggest. It's a hit and miss thing, I suppose.

Is it just me, but what I'm reading on here today seems to be unsolicitated advice yet again, particularly from Starlady and I see estranged posters again almost justifying their situations.

This was going well as a Support thread...

Just saying.

Fairydoll2030 I have had my knuckles tapped, I know this is a support post. I'm forever grateful that I'm not involved and I attempt to read, learn and not question.

But, I do wonder, as Smileless commented, to bossy behaviour being CO worthy?

Norah. I'm sure that there are many grandparente who actually deserve to be CO!!

Bossy, intrusive, critical, demanding, making unscheduled visits, violence, drugs, excess drinking/smoking/swearing to name but a few unacceptable behaviours that some grandparents undoubtedly might engage in

BUT

then there are those who have tried always to do the right thing by their AC and still find they are CO. And it's heartbreaking. And all too often inexplicable.

IMO AC who've CO their parents for no real reason aren't interested in apologies; they just don't want them around anymore.

Spot on smileless, our daughter wasn't remotely interested in all thrncard, letter, flowers olive branches we offered for 8 years despite friends and family's advice to leave her alone a they said we had done Nothing wrong still we perservered total waste of time,

Well ladies am in shock spinal surgeon was wonderful and he said I have been in so much pain for too long he is going to operate on my back after our and his holiday end July, he was soooo kind and understanding,
Injections waste time they maynwork few weeks then back to square one he said,

Scarey or what,? However I thanked him for giving me hope of getting free of pain, yippee!

The hospital is near my ed but I won't be expecting a visit?

Norah bless you ??you are trying hard,

Rhinestone smilless and yogagirl I think your good wishes Helped!

I feel positive despite bad day ref tummy nerves i expect

Hey ho tomorrow seeing my dear hairdresser at hers again for hair highlights etc and bet her little babe has grown a lot in 5 weeks??

celebgran that is wonderful, for your spinal surgeon to be so caring.

My GP said to me last year ''back pain is part of aging''.

I have to take painkillers before doing anything even going on the train or shopping.

Sorynhear tharnsparkly gran I am on morphine have been for 8 months pain so bad I cast stand or walk it ruins your life

Yes it was wonderful see such good surgeon last man I saw In Feb wasn't caring at all

Well, the postings of Dr. Coleman's writings may be "unsolicited advice," Fairydoll, but I'm sure many people value them. And there's no rule against advice in a support thread. In fact, people give it in here all the time. Suggesting that someone move on with their life, for example, is advice. Often the advice is part of the support.

As for me, Iv been mostly discussing ideas raised by other posters. But if you have a problem with any of my posts, please report it to GN and maybe they'll delete it for you.

Maybe you didn't like it when I suggested that your mum may have just been mistaken about your gf. But that's not advice, that's just thinking out loud. Obviously, I could be wrong. And either way, I'm sure it doesn't ease the pain of not having your gf in your life.

StarladyWe took care of our grandchild for three years before he was ripped away from us without reason. I'm sure he has asked about us. He was four at the time. That was not his decision and although children don't get to choose what road their parents will take it is considered abuse to a child to taking away family that he lived and was lived back. His brother doesn't know us as we only saw him three times before he was one so he has lost nothing in his mind.. He doesn't even know we exist.
I hope you all don't mind my posting what Dr. Coleman said. I'm always interested in everyone's opinion. ( and I miss giving out information being a retired teacher)
I promise I won't make you do homework.
We all have opinions and advice. Take what you want on this forum and leave what you don't. And thats MY advice.
Celebgran I'm glad there is at least something your doctor can do. No one wants an operation but if it relieves your pain it will be worth it. You have suffered enough.

Oh goodness. I can't type on this phone . Meant love not lived.

Rhinestone no anger, as I didn't know they existed, I had my mum's M&D as my nannie & granddad and as a child I thought you could only have one set, so when my friends would say about their other N&G I would say "but you can only have one N&G" I couldn't understand there were actually 2 sets.

I agree with your post Smileless, I have finally excepted the fact that my once beloved D doesn't want her mum, sister and the rest of her birth family in her life, but my precious GD most certainly did, as did my GS I'm sure.

So Starlady you have 3 personal friends that are estranged from their D/S ! Interesting hearing what is being said on Mumset though, keep us informed, I would love to hear what my estD has to say on the subject, I really would. I can honestly say that I have said not one adverse word or deed to my D, nor did I to my nasty s.i.l, till the court papers had to state the reason I had been 'cut out' when I said it was down to nasty s.i.l's paranoia due to his drug taking!

Hi everyone, not been about, have the worst cold ever, all my face has broken out and feeling very dirty for myself. Not looking in the mirror as it is too scary.
Celebregran, so glad they have finally found out what needs doing for your back problem, know it's never nice to have an operation but to be pain free will be wonderful.
Regarding some of the rather unhelpful posts about what might have gone wrong, to get to estrangement everything, has been tried to patch things up. No contact is just an easy way out for a lot of people, no one is perfect, no one should have to be scared of making an innocent comment that could be taken the wrong way. We are just ordinary people doing the best we can.
Yogagirl, Rhinestone, Celebregran and Smileless and Eddiecat and all others on here, have a good weekend and ?? we all deserve it.

Rhinestone* thanks for the advise clips, always interesting to read different articles and don't worry about your typos, we all do it,[thanks for ctrl+/_ advise Norah, learn something every day] When I read mine back I think "Doh" and anyway you just read the post correctly, knowing it's a typo. Soo sad about your GS Every day my heart brakes a little bit more from this, knowing my once special bond with my beloved GD is broken for ever and for what

Oh dear Celebgran a spinal op, not good news, what is it exactly, a trapped nerve, a slipped disc??

Smileless Fairydoll

Luckylegs There goes those typos again Wish you better

Eddiecat can't leave you out

Rhinestone, how awful for gs! I don't know what some parents are thinking!This is what happened to one of my friends are her gd. She took care of her gd every day for a few years and then, suddenly - nothing! The parents said it was because my friend broke some of their rules. She says she only bent a few when it made things a little easier. But none of that changes the bond that she and her gd had. Did the parents even think of how their child felt about that? IDK.

All I can say is these parents are bound to have to answer for this to their kids later on. But I know that doesn't make it any easier now.

Yoga, I believe you about not having said or done anything "adverse." Or at least, not what you or I see as adverse. Some of these young people seem to have different ideas about that than we do, and I think they influence each other. But if they see something the GP doesn't, they should certainly let them know. I don't get this leaving people wondering. So sorry, once again.

How awful for your friend Starlady. Mr. S. and I are just grateful that we never had much contact with our eldest GC in the 8 months we did see him and have never had any at all with our youngest. I cannot begin to imagine how painful it must be for you Yoagairl, Rhinestone and all the other EGP's who did have a solid relationship with their GC and now never see them.

Starlady you've certainly highlighted an unreasonable and unjustified reason for estrangement; breaking "some of their rules". Thanks for that, it demonstrates that not EGP's are toxic and abusive.

I know Norah being CO for being too bosy; I'm still trying to get my head around that one.

Goodness Celeb back surgeryI mean it's wonderful if there's something that can be done to free you from all this pain but it sounds frightening. What exactly will it entail?

Well, although an unrelated topic I do think that the Radio 4 program Mr. S. heard yesterday certainly shines a light on the attitude that some of our AC's generation have.

It was a discussion about the difficulty many have getting their own home; the huge deposits that are needed, not to mention the asking price. A young man came on who'd recently got married and is living in rented accommodation trying hard to save for a deposit.

They'd been living with his parents for sometime before they were married and had managed to save quite a large sum. Soon after the wedding they decided that rather than use their savings as a deposit they'd spend the money to go on a road trip around America.

OK so far, then he said the gov. should set up a scheme to 'encourage' us oldies, the 'baby boomers' to give up our homes which are too big for us so that his generation can have affordable housing. He said it was unfair that those of us who do, live in houses that are far bigger than our needs.

What amazed me and Mr. S. is that the interviewer didn't point out that they wouldn't be renting if they'd used their savings as a deposit. It's a good job this young man doesn't know the size of our new home that Mr. S. and I are thoroughly enjoying rattling around in.

Oooh but DS has seen ithe fell in love with it and said how fab it isI said I was glad he liked it because hopefully one day it'll be his. Just hope he can wait until we've both popped off and he gets his inheritance.

PS forgot to thank you Rhinestone for the articles which if not for Norah I wouldn't have been able to read. Just read the first as the second didn't interest me as I've no intention of contacting ES.

All of the reasons given for 'giving up' are the ones that Mr. S. and I had for our decision. A difficult decision it goes without saying but it's been the best way forward for us.