I just want to make this clear

Would any mother choose to bury her child rather be estranged from them ? I think not.

Well said Annie

to you all insuch a sad position to be in.

To lose a child in anyway must be so painful and finding a way to go on living after such loss is a real act of bravery.

For some counselling helps, it can't change what has happened but it may help ease some of the pain and facilitate ways of coping when life gets especially tough so if possible give it a go.

It is heartbreaking to think that people suffer so much from estrangement, and that those who inflict this must know to some degree what they are doing. Do they realise the level of pain they inflict? Do they want to hurt someone else so much? It brings tears to read of the sadness that some posters have had, and the sense of deep loss. I can say nothing helpful except that I feel very much for people who have had suffering through family estrangement and wish that something may happen in the future to help ease the pain.

I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to have to bury your own child Annie, the pain must be over whelming.

The pain of having your own child walk away and tell you you are no longer a part of theirs and their child's life and are to stay away I have experienced, and know how over whelming it is.

For Nannykay who has experienced both, the loss of her child through estrangement has been more painful for her than the death of her other child. That does not mean that she, or any other estranged parent would have chosen to bury them rather than have them walk away.

To lose a child is truly heartbreaking, regardless of how that loss has come about and for many estranged parents there may be life, but there isn't any hope, because no matter how much you love and miss the child that has abandoned you, you cannot make them love you in return and come back into your life.

I must tell you counseling is as much use as the proverbial chocolate teapot!
I lost my youngest son aged 24 and since then have had little or no contact with my other 3 adult children. It's a long complicated story but we have tried at different times for reconciliation.
My eldest son I haven't seen for the 20 odd years since my youngest sons death. Unless you count the couple of 10 minute accidental meetings when he has been visiting one of his sisters.
As someone else said the damage has been done now. Even if we all magically became friends again think how awkward it would be re their friends? Where has this Mother appeared from? What have their friends been told about their Mother? I do know my son tells people I am dead as it makes it easier for him.
I have had several different counsellors over the years but honestly they can do nothing to help. The fact remains that the children you carried and gave birth to and nurtured through all their childhood years no longer want or need you in their lives.
Let me tell you the pain is unbearable. Many times I have got close to ending it.

One of ours was a neonatal death. I've got past that. It hurts more that most of my children now deny my existence. I don't know what they tell their children.

I agree with Anniebach. I'd rather my daughter was out there somewhere, living her life and contributing to society even without me in her life.

I think counselling would help, Nannykay, to put things in perspective.

I do sympathise with your pain

Nannykay, I cannot imagine the pain you must live with. I cannot add really to all that's been said, but I do hope there are times when you can put the awful pain aside and live for the day and grab the bits of happiness in it.

Who'd have thought becoming a mother could bring so much pain with it?

Nannakay, I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles. You are very brave.

Have you ever thought that the continuing grieving for the baby that you lost made your son feel unwanted - or not as much worth as the long lost baby
Children can be very sensitive to these feelings. Did he ever get the idea that the lost baby -now an angel and perfect, was just too much competition.
I think my two DDs would not have reacted well to my always grieving for a lost baby when they were alive and they could see that I had a child.

OMG! I am astonished to hear of so many mums cut out of their sons and daughters' lives! How can this happen? Especially when it's "all" or almost "all" of one's kids? How cruel! My heart breaks for you all!

My heart also breaks for those of you who have lost a child to Heaven. How very, very sad.

Fortunately, for me, I haven't experienced either, so I don't presume to know which is worse. Death seems more final to me, but perhaps I am wrong. I imagine different people see it different ways, just like in this thread.

I'm glad for the family members some of you still have contact with and hope you treasure every minute. Smileless, I am glad you and Mr. S. have found some sort of peace.

Brupen, maybe counseling cannot change the situation, but the right counselor might be able to help you cope and stop thinking about ending your life.

Nannykay, in the same way, counseling might help you overcome the negative thoughts you are obviously having. Please consider it.

Brupen, nobody should be feeling so low as to contemplate ending things.

Please do not dismiss counselling. Of course they counsellor cannot fix things but slowly you may gain more understanding and be able to cope better.

Thank you Greengal. I can understand why those who have tragically had a child die, cannot understand why some who are estranged do not see any hope where there is life.

For some of us, that is the harsh realisation we have to face in order to move on with our lives. In the end it isn't just the estrangement itself that begins to destroy us, it is the hope that perhaps maybe, one day the estrangement will end.

For us, there was only so long we could wait for the telephone call, text or knock at the door that never came. There were only so many times we could open his emails in the vain hope that they wouldn't be full of his anger, bitterness, lies and bile.

Some AC walk away and are never heard from again. Some need not only to stick the knife in, but twist it at every given opportunity.

We used to live just 15 doors away from our ES and it seems that not allowing us to have contact with our GC wasn't enough for him. On more than one occasion he walked passed our house with our GC. He didn't need too, we lived on a cul de sac.

Oh, Smileless, your last paragraph astounded me! How could ES be so cruel? Or was he, perhaps, hoping you or Mr.S. would come out and try to mend things? Did either of you ever try that?

Be that as it may, I understand your feeling that you had to move on, that you couldn't keep waiting for that telephone call or text, etc. I can see where that kind of hope could turn to further pain after a while. Hope all continues to go as well as possible for you.

Smileless, I am so sorry, how painful for you

Thank you Annie.

We never considered going outside when he walked passed Greengal for fear of confrontation. Once when we were returning from a walk and walked passed their house, our eldest GC, only about 3 years old was in the front garden.

I stopped just to look at him and he began talking to me, reaching up to the door bell and telling me he could almost reach it. Our ES was standing there, looking at the ground and didn't say a word.

Then the front door opened and his wife grabbed our GC by the arm, told him to 'get in here now' and pulled him inside.

As we were walking away, we heard our ES yelling at us 'just leave us alone, leave us alone'. We turned around and he was standing in the middle of the foot path, his face almost purple with rage and shaking his fist at us.

Mr. S. was so angry, I felt his body tense and he went to move toward him. I realised our GC was standing next to our ES, looking up at him alarmed and confused so I told Mr. S. we should walk away, which we did.

With the distinct possibility of such a hostile and aggressive reaction, there's no way we would ever approach him again.

Smileless, that is cruel.

Thinking about Nannykay, her child who died didn’t choose to leave her, her elder son did, rejection.

For me, who has been fortunate not to have suffered the loss of a child either through death or separation, I can only imagine the dreadful pain and turmoil you experience/d.
All I can offer is sympathy.
I have used counselling to manage a different situation. It cannot 'mend' a situation but it can help you to see the choices you have in how you can live your life after a situation has happened. It is worth doing if you can go with an open heart and mind.

Actually I don’t think it’s helpful to compare peoples pain.

Just that really.

That's how I feel too Eglantine21....estrangement v death?
Pain is pain where ever its found.

Smileless, Thankyou for putting your experience so articulately. It helps those of us who have seen this first hand rationalise it somehow, and those of us who haven't understand a little more!

I'm just sorry there is a need for this support. X

Nannykay…..just like to say I'm thinking of you today. I hope you post again soon.

I have heard estrangement described as a living bereavement, and it does seem to feel that way for those who are in that position.

Smileless, I'm speechless... just so sorry...

That term "living bereavement" sounds like it fits, MissAdventure.