Petition: Give legal right of contact between grandchildren and grandparents

I agree that this needs to be looked at again here in the UK Callistemon and perhaps France has the right idea.

There are ways to report the abuse and have the child removed

That does not always work in practice.

I'm trying to argue the case from the viewpoint of the rights of a child to be able to develop healthy, loving relationships with wider family and also to know there is loving family there to turn to if their parents are abusive.

I have said a number of times on this forum that my husband was abusive and eventually left me and our then seven year old child. At first my son saw his father and paternal grandparents regularly but then he started to become the target of his father’s abuse. He refused to see his father, or any of his father’s family, again. He would not be persuaded. His father then commenced proceedings to obtain a court order for my son to be forced to see him. This meant that my son had to be interviewed by a court social worker, a very kindly man who reported back to the court that communication should be by letter and birthday/Xmas cards only. The experience was traumatic despite the SW’s kind and gentle manner. I cannot imagine such an application being made by the paternal grandparents, who would I know have had only their and their son’s interests in mind. A child should not be subjected to this process. My son continued to be resolute and never saw his father or any paternal family members again, nor would he open any cards or gifts they sent. I am vehemently opposed to any move to give grandparents rights to see grandchildren, based on my own experience. My son flourished once all that was behind him - even his teachers commented on the change in him.

I do not doubt at all that in some cases the parents themselves are the harmful ones, please don't get me wrong

But gaining access to a child of a harmful parent actually puts the child at more risk in many cases... Because a harmful parent will punish the child.

If any suspicion is held that a child is with an unsafe parent then the first priority should be reporting concerns, not access to the child

And the parents of the harmful parent, if given access, would ensure that their child was included no matter the terms of the court order.

I agree with VS that any grandparents’ concerns should be reported to social services and the police.

I won't be signing this petition. As a grandparent I am privileged to be able to see my grandchildren whenever I want but I don't believe I have a right to see them.

User138562

I legitimately don't understand this. If the child is being abused by the parents, there are laws for that. There are ways to report the abuse and have the child removed. They will attempt to place the child with family, and at that point the grandparents may assume responsibility.

I really can't see any other situation where grandparents should have visitation against the will of the parents.

Personal anecdotes will not change this. I can give endless personal anecdotes about abusive grandparents and extended family. Also about abusive parents. In the end they are just anecdotes and don't represent the wider picture reliably. Anecdotes certainly don't justify entire new laws complicating family law even further.

This is a petition to give grandparents control when they've been denied something they feel entitled to. It's gross and exploitative in my opinion.

An excellent post - anecdotal evidence has no place
in a courtroom and would be disallowed, as would
heresay.

The OP’s ‘evidence’ is scattered, illogical, emotive,
strident, - entitled, without a doubt.

Which is one reason why her endless efforts have got nowhere, and I hope that continues to be the case.

In the case I posted earlier SS were involved but thought the child should stay with the mother. If the GM hadn't intervened that child would have suffered horribly and may have even died. Social Services don't always get it right.

Smileless2012

I agree that this needs to be looked at again here in the UK Callistemon and perhaps France has the right idea.

France still operates on Napoleoniv Law, whereby the child cannot be disenfranchised, a completely different mindset, completely, children absorbed into a family, four generations out dining together,is an obvious example.

No social services don't always get it right and are understaffed and underfunded...

Adding more adults having a right to access against parents wishes would add further strain to social services

I agree grandparents shouldn't have rights to contact but they should be listened to and taken seriously if they believe their GC is being abused and this doesn't always happen.

Yes it's just wondering the pool of danger for children really by giving even more people rights to have them alone

Widening the pool of danger

Sorry

Callistemon21

Well, SORES, what if you'd had parents or a step-parent who abused you, threatened you and you were prevented from seeing the only people you knew who truly loved you and you could speak to?

Not all grandparents are estranged because they are abusive.
Not all parents are loving and caring.
Not all parents prevent their children seeing grandparents for the good of the child.

well Callistemon, this is indeed an excellent description of my young life, abuse, isolation, kept from grandparents and wider family, threatened, abused, hit, then as a mother making sure my children were not subject to the same treatment, firing up their need for control at all costs.
I know all this, I lived it - you are preaching to the choir.
This subject is a powderkeg of emotion for those of us justifiably protecting our young, against the odds sometimes,
when only we and our children know the truth.

It’s not like you to be so vehemently sanctimonious.

It's very sad for those estranged GPs who would have been loving and caring and enhanced the lives of their GCs but as I posted earlier it is a privilege not a right.

An unfortunate truth is most children don't tell about abuse that happens... And one rule of safeguarding is you cannot question a child because it is too easy to implant ideas in a child's head.

You can only report what a child tells you without questioning or any physical signs of abuse/neglect that you can evidence

In court it can be argued that asking leading questions or making certain statements to a child is in itself alienation... Meaning the person doing it would be ruled unsafe

Plus the other danger is that certain children don't actually report things correctly depending on their stage of development. For example, a child can run past someone and trip over their leg and genuinely believe it is their fault that happened whereas actually, it was an accident and the other person didn't move.

Also they do say things to cover themselves, like I remember being called in by my son's teacher for him being extremely tired and his baby brother keeping him awake... His brother was breastfed and never had time to cry. My son had been sneaking time on a kindle after bed.

It's a minefield working in a school sometimes lol

Although if mediation fails, a Child Arrangement Order can be sought

That says it all. If mediation has failed, what hope is there that the parties can work out an amicable arrangement for access.
And if a child arrangement order can be sought, what’s the actual problem?
I won’t be signing.

AGAA4

It's very sad for those estranged GPs who would have been loving and caring and enhanced the lives of their GCs but as I posted earlier it is a privilege not a right.

Is it a child's right though, if it will benefit them, and that is what they want?

Assuming they're old enough to decide.

It's a very knotty problem.

Yes it is a knotty problem MissA and as I posted earlier, if some parents put the needs and wishes of their children above their own grievances, then we wouldn't have situations where children lose the GP's they know and love, because of the differences their parents have with their own parents.

The law in the UK doesn't give GP's, children though do have rights and the parents who deny them those rights are the ones who are at fault here, not the GP's who want to continue to have their relationship with their GC, or the children who want to continue to have that relationship with their GP's.

Too many children are used by their parents to 'punish' their own parents.

We never knew our only GC and had we done so, and had an established relationship with them I don't know what we'd have done. Maybe we would have gone through the courts I don't know, but I don't believe that GP's who do choose to do so should be criticised.

It's the parents who are in the wrong, not the GP's and certainly not the children.

That's a very sweeping statement Smileless

The rules are as they are because the children's rights come first

That's why children get their own representative in court that can and does overrule the parents if needed

If grandparents can genuinely prove a relationship is in the child's best interest and the child's rights are being denied they can go to court...

But where a person wants rights over a child that isn't theirs and believes that right should overrule both parents and children... Then that makes everyone uncomfortable and they won't sign

Babyshark

I won’t sign this. The unintended consequences are massive and detrimental to the children.

They aren’t your children to have rights over.

This 100%. You simply don’t have rights to children that are not your own. As it should be

I couldn’t agree more VS”

This isn't about the rights of GP's to see their GC, or the rights of parents to prevent their children from continuing the relationship they have with their GP's, it's about *the rights of the children*; rights which are and shouldn't be denied.

No it isn't a sweeping statement VS, there are too many children who lose their GP's because mum/dad or both parents have an issue with parents/p's.i'l's. One child who loses out is one child too many.

This petition isn't something I would sign but let's be right here, this is about children's rights, not their parents rights and not their GP's rights, and that has nothing to do with anyone wanting rights over a child.