If you are dealing with narcissism, let’s all help each other.

No, a good psychologist is as qualified as a psychiatrist in practical terms. I know because I had one support me. The Psychiatrist would accept her recommendations as to using the label.

But these days we are so short of NHS psychiatrists that the number of people actually diagnosed as one is tiny.

I'm speaking as someone who is trained as a psychotherapist but I would not diagnose, tho I might notice.

The problem with all personality disorders is that they are very very hard to actually diagnose. Take a huge amount of time.

Personality disorders are not only extremely difficult to make

- but some lazy professionals slap a diagnosis of BPD (borderline personality disorder) -

(^I advise looking it up to see if the person you are concerned about show symptoms of inability to be empathic and selfishly only talks about themselves and cant^ "see" ^the other person - but isn't out to actually destroy others^):

when a situation is complex and the person is "difficult" and unresponsive to therapy
But doesn't do the damage a true Narcissist can.

Unless its crystal clear - and there are some clear examples above its probably better to say on the Narcissist spectrum, as the term is now so heavily used its in danger of being used for more trivial situations

My first marriage, happily, was with a man where we both had difficulties that eventually drove us apart amicably and fortunately my son was with him: we have both done a great deal of therapy and now are good friends and hopefully grandparents.

Then I met someone who has not only been diagnosed as on the spectrum but also hiding a lifelong diagnosis of Bi-Polar 1.

This is another possibly mistaken "narc" because in the very high mania if bi-polar if untreated the grandiosity and "using" others can also take place.

Oh my, he hid it well.

All the Narc spectrum stuff and at first of course the love of my life - at 60 -amazing fun, amazing sex, the lot, the gaslighting, the destructiveness as time went on, he liked it when I was depressed as he had control - the lies (3 different versions of his life events - found out afterwards from a friend of his you never ever lent him money...the hell of the year of the split up, some unbelievable stories - defrauding his mother, police in, police in to keep me safe:
I was classified as an adult on the SSD safeguarding register - I started making sound recordings of all events after police said you need proof.
Threats of suicide from him, leading me to have to act to get him accommodation as I knew the MH system - after chucked out of mums and the defrauding - police round with search and arrest warrants for me as accused of hiding him.

My ace card was that I owned the house, it was in my name and had been my money, so a deal was done under then just new divorce laws.

Looking back, I can see each Narc trait trick in the book - but subtle for so long.

It took over a year to extricate myself and I found out much later he was telling people (no one who could affect me in any way) that he was an abused husband. You cant make it up, because that was exactly what he had told me of a previous relationship he had had.

You should have seen the building manager of the supported flats he is in when I had to go round - and I had taken the precaution of taking my Safeguarding letter official proof - he was busy being Mr Charming again.

Bear with me. There has been cruel repeat of a kind.

After all this I fell into a depression, not surprisingly: when I sated coming out to me, I came back to a religious group (mild, everyday, not a cult) and cautiously saw several people for coffee out of the group - known from before of course.

and up comes another wolf in sheeps clothing. An elderly but in good health man decided he was attracted to me and did the Narc trait stuff, thoughtful, listening - tho nothing that would alert me seriously - and after one meeting 3 months later sexually assulted me . I had no interest in him whatsoever and had not shown any interest in him except as one amongst others who were kind as I returned.

I had had no idea he was going round other people saying how lonely he was after being a widow, getting with Mr charm lots of women who were fond of him and later could not believe me. Very, very manipulative

I had WhatsApps from significant people that it could be true, that I was provoking hostility, etc etc

He was one of those men who is a hero in th outside world but different personally, so again, people found it hard to think he could have done it.

So police again but Safeguarding in the organisation didnt know what to do, it was so unheard of..long story short - after months of agonising as I wanted him to really own what he had done in order to forgive and move on (went through Police Restorative Justice to try to get it)

But should have known better - people with these personalities are incapable of challenges to their egos, as under the ego is fragility....

Anyway more recently at last he was banned from the group.
the lack of support from Safeguarding was enormous, it never need have happed the way it did, and now policies being changed nationally so local Safeguarders have support and a blue print.

As you can imagine I am now full on Narc Trait alert. but as all have said, they can be so convincing, which is why we often find them in positions of huge power. but just be aware there are other P disorders that my appear to have Narc Traits but are not. Like someone who pesters you with them, them, and can't listen to you, but that doesn't necessarily make them have Narc Traits.

Wyllow3 You are certainly well qualified to spot a narc.

I agree re BPD and NPD as to how there are some similarities, I have not been exposed to much bipolar disorder so cannot comment.

My Mother was a definite narc, delusions of grandeur, zero empathy, a manipulator a liar and very very cruel.

My father had narc tendencies but he was a violent bully first.

I wish as a teenager I had understood NPD, had I had more knowledge I would have gone NC.

Wyllow3

Kindly, I suggest you re-read your post and consider whether it would be best to have it deleted by GN.

What it shows is a long history of personal vulnerability; and that you are still struggling.

In your own interest, think twice about exposing yourself so much.

I wish there was a like button

It's OK butterandjam. I have PM'd you on that point. But to speak generally, if you come out of the situation reasonably intact, you are the stronger for it, as others will attest. And the other point, is to understand that there may be more going on than a straightforward Narc trait - ie complex other MH problems.

As regards Bi Polar, there are many effective drugs and people can live normal and loving lives* ^as long as they own their illness and are willing to seek help, but a person with a PD is more difficult to "Reach in and help"

And however difficult it was, it cannot be compared to being subject to it as a child, by a parent as Sago has described.

And I think its valuable to know that the friend who is constantly talking about themselves is possibly suffering from BPD, in as much as you may want to avoid them, but their intentions are not destructive to you.

Almost certainly many are suffering inside, as their actions turn people away, not to them.

Wyllow3 The terminology is interesting, it has only just occurred to me how we use “suffering”.

I don’t believe for one second that my mother ever “suffered”

I would say you would suffer with bipolar and to a degree with BPD but I’m sure narcs don’t suffer.

I don't think your Mum suffered Sago from everything you said. She seemed to have a pretty watertight personality.

The only thing you had going for you really as you grew up that her behaviour was so marked, so cruel, so obvious, so appalling

as you got older and she did that somehow you were able to stand back and see it for what it was as time went on, but it left its marks.

I know Ex did suffer, but that was the bi-polar at work. He did have suicidal thoughts in his life. In a way, the Narc tendencies and the grandiosity in self image were an escape from that dark side.

I didn’t see it until about 20 years ago.

I was 40 when it started to dawn on me that it was her and not me then my brother (golden child) to whom she was estranged died and things started to unravel.

I didn’t feel like a whole person until she was dead.

Unfortunately she left a trail of destruction behind and there are still family members that think I coerced her for money, stole from her etc.

Some of her lies were so fantastic, I find it hard to believe people fell for it.

She had the ultimate accessories though, a Catholic priest who was her flying monkey and of course the Church.

Totally believe you.
Attachment is so powerful. and when you have a Catholic priest at work.

My assailant had/has some flying monkeys but in the end the people that mattered have mostly lost their power for me.

I think in some ways everyone tries to control their lives, and there is nothing wrong with trying to get what you want from the world and other people.

It's how you do it, and to some extent, those things you let happen to you (when you are an adult) if there is a choice. (Easy to say, hard to do)

BlessedArt

NPD is a clinical diagnosis. I wonder how many people have actually received said diagnosis from an actual psychiatrist since it became so internet-trendy to label everyone a narcissist who we have problems with. Not to downplay anyone’s issues but it does make me wonder.

This is what I think.
Anyone who puts their own needs before those of the complainer is labelled a"narcissist" when it might well be the complainer who simply won't take responsibility for their own decisions or lives and deflects responsibility on to literally anyone and/or everyone else who is/ are of course labelled accordingly.
I sympathise, of course , with anyone dealing with a truly abusive individual.

Mimi11 exactly this. My ex husband (I now know) was (is!!) a narcissist, I'm nowsure of it. He isolated me slowly, but surely over the 21 years of our marriage, firstly from friends, belittling me, completely destroyed my trust in my own memory, then tried to isolate me from my parents and sister. Then I got a job working in a school. My colleagues gave me back my self esteem and I plucked up the courage to divorce him. The Judge at the divorce proceedings saw straight through him and made things much easier for me. The divorce cost me a great deal financially. The marriage scarred me for life, but I have not had any contact with him for years, but know through other people that he has since remarried and divorced ... again and had 3 more children! But my life with my new (very supportive) husband is so "normal" and he has encouraged me to enjoy life. I'm so thankful for the kind support of others too. You need all the help you can get when you try to make the break which is why I support women's refuges. If you suspect your partner is a narc, get out as soon as it is practical for you to do so. Honestly, it's worth the effort. Your life will improve 100%. Good luck! X

There's a difference between "diagnosing" someone with NPD and recognizing observable narcissistic behavior patterns. Anyone can recognize the patterns with enough practice.

Speaking about narcissists is a way for victims of similar behaviors to identify each other. It's the not talking about it that does damage. The less it is talked about the less it can be recognized and responded to appropriately.

I was an only child raised by a narcissistic mother (now, thankfully, dead) and a father who was loving and kind but understandably withdrawn and not loving and kind enough to protect me from her constant criticism and rages. We never discussed what went on. Like others all the abuse and emotional neglect I thought to be my fault and that I was an inadequate and unlikeable person.

When I was in my 50s, a friend showed me a list of 20 or so narcissistic traits, all of which I recognised in my mother.
I slowly began to realise she was the abnormal one, but the damage was very extensive and it's left me a people pleaser with little motivation and energy in life.

I can quite honestly say that I had no inkling that I might have needs, or that I had the right to assert them. My whole young life was trying to make her life perfect (obviously impossible) and walking on eggshells to avoid her rages. I can honestly say that hardly a day passed without my feeling the fight or flight response and when you're a small child, you have nowhere to go and daren't fight.

Also like the narcissists described here, they can be charming and all good things, so other people can't and won't believe how they change behind closed doors. I realise now, that we had minimal contact with either side of our extended family so I had no support from anyone who might have been interested.

At least there is lots of information now so it's easier to recognise. But if you're a child with a parent like this, you don't know it's not normal until the damage has been done. Unless and until someone notices, the parent has all the power.

BlessedArt

NPD is a clinical diagnosis. I wonder how many people have actually received said diagnosis from an actual psychiatrist since it became so internet-trendy to label everyone a narcissist who we have problems with. Not to downplay anyone’s issues but it does make me wonder.

This is true, but it also contributes to the difficulty people have when they are dealing with narcissism. They are so often shut down by gatekeepers of diagnoses. It's not always necessary to have the behaviour signed off - do you need a dentist to tell you you have toothache?

I have had a narcissist in my life (she is no longer part of it now, thank goodness), and know how difficult it is to recognise what is happening at first. When you do, they have become enmeshed in your life, which makes it even harder to get away from it. I never want to go through that again, and have every sympathy with those who have no way out. 'My' narc didn't have a diagnosis - the idea of her thinking for a moment that she might be damaged in some way is laughable, despite her string of failed relationships with people whose reputations she has done her best to destroy. I was lucky to have my husband to reassure me that none of what happened was my fault, but when people are married to (or related to) a narcissist they don't have that luxury.

Exactly what Doodledog says.

You have more chance of having tea on the moon without King than you do of getting a narc to being assessed.

Well, they are the last people to be prepared to do. I do agree with reading all you can. I was lucky I had someone to discuss things like gaslighting and flying monkeys in the end but read an awful lot and to be able to understand - it's a great start.
Without it, it's walking round in a fog of low self worth and helpless ness and even - since it's fostered on you - self-blame.

What I find hard to understand Wyllow3 is with all your experience and expertise you have got yourself into all those situations without recognising a narcissist.
Once bitten twice shy?
Also, certain words like narc, toxic, gaslighting, flying monkeys are bandied around so much as to have lost much meaning.
I expect that many so called narcs are simply very selfish people.
Unless diagnosed , and I agree many won’t want a diagnosis anyway, I don’t think we can give labels to everyone who exhibit bad behaviours towards us.

Oreo

What I find hard to understand Wyllow3 is with all your experience and expertise you have got yourself into all those situations without recognising a narcissist.
Once bitten twice shy?
Also, certain words like narc, toxic, gaslighting, flying monkeys are bandied around so much as to have lost much meaning.
I expect that many so called narcs are simply very selfish people.
Unless diagnosed , and I agree many won’t want a diagnosis anyway, I don’t think we can give labels to everyone who exhibit bad behaviours towards us.

Had you read the article fully and maybe taken time to process it you should understand that Wyllow3 was vulnerable after her relationship with the first narc, a second narc then moved in on her offering empathy.
He would have spotted his prey and gained her trust, this is how they work and boy are they clever!
She is a psychotherapist and knows the signs but he was convincing.

Regarding your comment that narcs are probably just selfish then hear this, from as long as I can remember my mother said to me I rue the day you were born, she asked my why I wasn’t more like my brother or cousins.

Her favourite thing to do was to tell my friends that I was horrible and they would soon find out and stop playing with me.

I was told I was a guttersnipe and would eventually find my place in the gutter.

She emptied my childhood bank account of all the money I had diligently saved and bought my brother a cassette player with the proceeds.

My hair was cut short into unflattering styles and my clothes were just horrendous, I was pretty and she was jealous.

The smallest thing could send her into a narcissistic rage, she would scream, at me humiliate, hit me, go to my room and literally turn it upside down.

She told anyone close to me I was a compulsive liar so they would’nt believe me if I told them what she had done.

She loved to make up a story to my father so he would give me a beating, it saved her doing it.

I spent my childhood treading on eggshells, listening to footsteps to try and assess her mood, I was made to feel responsible for all her emotions.

I spent years sitting at the dining table with my parents and brother whilst they ridiculed me, I hated food and I hated mealtimes more, I couldn’t wait to go upstairs and throw up, I felt cleansed.

When I was eventually taken to a doctor because my weight was so low she told him I was a picky eater and refused food.

She told me my teachers had all but given up on me because I was stupid, she said the other children didn't like me.

This thread was supposed to be somewhere we could come and gain support and you have decided to tell us we are dealing with people that are probably just a bit selfish.

People have been open and honest and you have basically just p@@@@d all over them.

Sago
I wasn’t trying to rain on anyone’s parade, but honestly SM is awash with people calling their DIL or their ML or their ex a narcissist.
Your Mother sounded unhinged more than a narcissist and I feel for you, but in any caseI think all can’t be true narcissists and there will be many showing awful behaviour for very different reasons.And yes, some of them will be exhibiting very selfish behaviour for their own ends, some may be narcissistic and some psychopaths in there too plus the mentally unhinged.
I just want people to think that throwing around the word narcissist may be too simplistic.It’s fair enough to want to tell your story and maybe derive comfort from hearing others telling of awful behaviours from relatives and friends.I just wanted to make a point, that’s all, and having made it I shall leave now.I feel sorry for all who have suffered pain, either physical or mental from others, do not doubt that.

We had a narcissist in our family, very handsome, very arty, and very charming. He managed to fool everyone who encountered him. He made me feel uneasy when I was six and he was eighteen. He just gave me the creeps. Long gone now but left a trail of destruction with both his kids, one who is scarred for life. He was just so convincing, people were taken in by him.

Oreo

Sago
I wasn’t trying to rain on anyone’s parade, but honestly SM is awash with people calling their DIL or their ML or their ex a narcissist.
Your Mother sounded unhinged more than a narcissist and I feel for you, but in any caseI think all can’t be true narcissists and there will be many showing awful behaviour for very different reasons.And yes, some of them will be exhibiting very selfish behaviour for their own ends, some may be narcissistic and some psychopaths in there too plus the mentally unhinged.
I just want people to think that throwing around the word narcissist may be too simplistic.It’s fair enough to want to tell your story and maybe derive comfort from hearing others telling of awful behaviours from relatives and friends.I just wanted to make a point, that’s all, and having made it I shall leave now.I feel sorry for all who have suffered pain, either physical or mental from others, do not doubt that.

That does not make me feel any better, I knew mother for 58 years have had counselling and read so much about NPD and you say she was unhinged.

I would love to know what you think a narcissist is.

I think most of us who were abused long term by a narcissist (or sociopath) and have had to receive medical and psychological help will be more aware of their abusers profile and characteristics

It’s helpful to at least have an explanation of why someone who is supposed to love you can behave in such a way, alongside the charm and gaslighting with others.

I understand why people are confused. It’s far easier to believe the charming enigma than the shy, often fearful victims that have to ‘show face’ - of course it must be them

BlessedArt

@Sago, a clinical diagnosis is not a matter of admission or denial. It’s a matter of a physician assigning a diagnosis from the DSM-5, like any other psych diagnosis. One would need to see a psychiatrist, be assessed, and then diagnosed. I highly doubt all the people labelling others have spoken to their psychiatrists, who then violated patient confidentiality to disclose the NPD diagnosis to others. Yes, people can be observed by anyone as selfish and manipulative, but that is entirely different to casually assigning them a personality disorder.

I can think of times when I've been selfish and manipulative, & I'm sure if we're honest most of us can.

But there are those around who would never recognise their behaviour, on reflection, to be selfish, because self-criticism is almost impossible for them.

I do think NPD in many cases manifests because of childhood trauma, so I wouldn't just think "horrible people" - there's a person beyond the NPD. But that doesn't make it any easier to live with.

I think the competitiveness where there should be supportiveness is the hardest.

We are all capable of negative actions and emotions, normal people reflect on their own behaviour and try to be better. It’s part of growing as a human being. Being a good person

It may be the case that the term is overused, but that doesn't mean that everyone using it is wrong. Sometimes the term might be used to describe a self-centred person who can't understand anything beyond their own experience, but the actual disorder is far more complicated than that, as anyone who has been in the orbit of a narcissist knows, whatever others might tell them.

It seems ironic that people who have lived experience of narcissism are being diagnosed as wrong about it because they 'aren't qualified' to diagnose.

Unfortunately, a thread for people who have experienced this behaviour has digressed into one about who is competent to diagnose it.