Is Islam a religion of love and peace?

Maybe I could have explained more clearly (at 15:15 on 06 April 26, page 8).

Unlike in Christianity, in Islam salvation depends on someone’s good deeds outweighing their bad deeds, and even then it’s not certain.

In Christianity your good deeds don’t have to outweigh your bad deeds. If you trust and follow Jesus, all the bad things you have done are forgiven at once. Then you obey him as well as you can, not to gain salvation, but out of love and gratitude. You will still sin, but you confess and are forgiven as you go along.

//For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith– and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works [what you do], so that no one can boast.//
- Ephesians 2.8-9

In Christianity salvation is guaranteed:

//And this is the testimony: God has given us [Christians] eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.//
‭‭ - 1 John‬ ‭5‬.11‬-‭12‬ ‭

A young Muslim who has led a particularly bad life can never be confident of salvation, even if he lived perfectly from then on. His only guaranteed path to salvation is dying in the cause of Allah (in jihad).

The education thing is valuable to "always been here" Brits too, as there didn't seem a long gap between education for all (leaving age 14 in 1918) and the privilege of education being taken for granted & not exploited to the full in our state system.( I certainly felt this in the 60's & 70s).

Having a decent proportion of pupils whose family really appreciate & push the value of education, can only be to the benefit of everyone in that class.

The UK has a different culture to the USA. Our colonial past means strong links between say Pakistan and India where the majority of my non white neighbours are from. Immigrants usually work hard, they come here for a better life, for good education which they value.

Reform is extremely active in the less deprived areas, like mine. Our black and Asian neighbours tend to be teachers, doctors, pharmacists. There’s a big council estate on the edge of our village. It’s got a growing population of African refugees with settled status. The children mix happily in local schools.

I agree, some elements of news media and some politicians seek to divide and stir what must be called as it is, racism.

WW, mark 2 In that most “Christian of countries across the Atlantic there are states where child marriage is legal with the consent of parents ,amd the recent rulings on women’s rights will take them back to the middle of the last century .
Yet it seems,s the Trump followers done see any of it as a problem…is that a lack of education?Or is it their evangelical approach to their god?
Whatever it is I don’t see the same traits in my Muslim friends who came here and live very western lives .work hard ,long hours support their kids in getting well educated and contribute both their taxes and their time in the community
SAdly the media and the likes of Farage have been hell bent on causing division and it seems to be working…would that be a lack of education ?Or can it be firmly laid at the doors of a biased media?

AuntieE Sadly, this is not the case. There is a great difference between the teachings of Christianity and the teachings of Islam (the only religions I know much about). If you have a look at my post on this thread posted on 28 Jan 26 at 14:55 (page 3 for me), you will see what I mean.

People can look online for themselves to see if the quotations in that post are misrepresentations. (They aren’t.)

Not all religions teach that believers should love all people. Here’s another quotation from the Qur’an, Sura 48.29.

//Muḥammad is the Messenger of Allāh; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers [non-Muslims], merciful among themselves.//

Sura 98.6 says that those who disbelieve [Islam] among the people of the Book [Jews and Christians] are ‘the worst of creatures’.

All the major religions of the world teach a moral and ethical code and teach that believers should love not only their immediate family but all people.

Unfortunately, humans make mistakes. Both the ordinary believers and the clerics who are preaching or teaching the message.

If every man and woman in the world who said they were either a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or Socialist for that matter really tried to love both the people they know and those they don't, to share goods and food with those in need, and to work for peace, rather than profit, then indeed we might be able to call all and any religion a religion of peace and love.

I am old enough to remember both Arafat and Ian Paisley inciting to violence whilst loudly proclaiming their alligeince to Islam in the one case and Christianity in another, and frankly there was nought to choose been those two.

Maremia, this is a very old thread.
Greatnan died some years ago. She was a well respected and liked poster

Quotes are just that quotes.
The Bible may also be quoted to prove a point, but also to misrepresent.
I know very little about Islam, but do come across a lot of Islamophobia.
Sorry if this discussion disappoints some Posters, and does not reach their standard of discussion, but you did chose to use Gransnet, which is an open forum.

Greatnan

Come on, Lilygran - do give us the benefit of your thoughts - otherwise, why bother posting? We are not mind readers!

Posting or not posting Greatnan? Well, it's a free country after all.

Isn't it?

SporeRB01

I am reluctant to discuss Islam because my knowledge is very limited but I feel I have to set the record straight.

^Skye17
3. Jihad
Those who die in jihad [‘a struggle or fight against the enemies of Islam’] are assured of salvation. (Many interpret this to include dying in terrorist acts.)
- Sura 61.10-12, Sura 4.74^

Yes, jihad means struggle and fight but it is more to do with one’s own internal struggle fighting against temptation. Not fighting against the enemies of Islam.

The verse 4:74 is related to an actual battle where a high number of Muslims were killed. So, the ‘enemies of Islam’ refers to whichever group of people who wanted the Prophet Mohammad and his followers dead at that time.

As far as I know no one else is assured of salvation in Islam. Mohammed said that he was not certain of it. So if a young man feels he has led a sinful life and is unlikely to be able to do enough good deeds to outweigh his sins, the only way he can certainly avoid hell according to Islam is by taking part in jihad.

I have absolutely no idea what this is all about. Pure fabrication. Total BS.

Muslims, including young Muslim men are encouraged to follow the 5 pillars of Islam which include:

1) Believe in one God
2) Daily prayers
3) Fasting during Ramadan
4) Zakat – giving money to Charity
5) Pilgrimage to Mecca. Once in one’s lifetime if you can afford it.

I am not offended when people discussed radical Islam. I am aware that there are extreme Sunni movements such as the Salafism in Aceh, Indonesia and Wahhabism originating from Saudi Arabia.

1.
jihad means struggle and fight but it is more to do with one’s own internal struggle fighting against temptation. Not fighting against the enemies of Islam.

This is a quotation from Dan Burmawi, a ex-Muslim born in Jordan who has written three books including Islam, Israel and the West (https://amzn.eu/d/09TP5CgW):

//The word jihad appears 199 times in the two main Islamic hadith books; every single instance refers to warfare, not inner moral conflict. ...

The idea of jihad as a personal, internal struggle comes from a single hadith that has been debunked by major Islamic scholars.

It does not appear in any of the six canonical hadith collections (Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah).//

2.
The verse 4:74 is related to an actual battle where a high number of Muslims were killed. So, the ‘enemies of Islam’ refers to whichever group of people who wanted the Prophet Mohammad and his followers dead at that time.

I have read all through Sura 4. There is nothing in it about a specific battle. The instruction in verse 74 looks like a general instruction, as does the verse after it.

//74 Let those who would sacrifice this life for the Hereafter fight in the cause of Allah. And whoever fights in Allah’s cause—whether they achieve martyrdom or victory—We will honour them with a great reward.

75 Believers fight for the cause of Allah, whereas disbelievers fight for the cause of the Devil.//

Sura 61.10-12 says:

//O believers! Shall I guide you to an exchange that will save you from a painful punishment?

It is to have faith in Allah and His Messenger, and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. …

He will forgive your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and ˹house you in˺ splendid homes in the Gardens of Eternity.//

Sura 9.41 says:

//O believers!˺ March forth whether it is easy or difficult for you, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the cause of Allah.//

What does ‘March forth’ mean? We can see that from an earlier verse in the same chapter:

//29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture [Jews and Christians], until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled.//

This was not just a matter of self-defence.

3.
I have absolutely no idea what this is all about. Pure fabrication. Total BS.

It is clear that giving your life in the cause of Allah is thought to lead to guaranteed salvation (see Sura 4.74 and Sura 61.10-12, above, and other passages). According to Dr David Wood, an expert in Islam, this is the only thing that does lead to guaranteed salvation.

In Sura 46.9, Allah tells Mohammed:

//Say, 'I am not different from the other messengers; and I do not know what will be done with me, or with you.//

I e, Mohammed did not know whether he would be saved.

Islam divides the world into the House of Islam and the House of War. The House of Islam is where Islam rules.

//The outside world, which has not yet been subjugated, is called the "House of War," and strictly speaking a perpetual state of jihad, of holy war, is imposed by the law.//
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/islam-rsquo-s-house-of-islam-and-house-of-war

So fighting in the cause of Allah includes extending the rule of Islam, by whatever means.

If a young man has led a sinful life and feels he has no chance of achieving salvation through his future life, dying in jihad may seem to him like his only chance of not going to hell.

Only one higher power. All religions recognise that, others do bad things under the cover of faith but of course their actions make liars of them.

Nannee49

Why would it be difficult to understand petra if approached with a certain amount of intelligence and an open mind regardless of your own belief system? And why bring Christianity into the mix again?

I used the word loosely. I assumed that would be understood.
Obviously not.

This is basically why I am not religious. Religions are far too easily used to mask political agendas.

I agree Oreo Islamic extremists are the real problem. But I think this was not the case many decades ago. I lived in Lancashire where there is a large Pakistani presence due to their labour being needed in the mills back in the 60s/70s. Nobody referred to their religion and if disparaging remarks were made about them it was a shortened version of their nationality. Nobody feared Islam despite many Muslims living among us, and not just in Lancashire. It really only became a thing after conflicts in the ME politicised Islam, and the of course Reagan funded Islamic militias to fight the Soviets in the region. Am not saying western governments caused it but their interference didn’t help.
Like I have said I don’t know much about Islam but do know a thing or two about geopolitics, and whilst not all Islamic extremism is down to this I believe it does fuel it.

Extremists interpret the Quaran to suit their own agenda and it’s the extremists that the world has a problem with.

Thanks SporeRB01

I am reluctant to discuss Islam because my knowledge is very limited but I feel I have to set the record straight.

^Skye17
3. Jihad
Those who die in jihad [‘a struggle or fight against the enemies of Islam’] are assured of salvation. (Many interpret this to include dying in terrorist acts.)
- Sura 61.10-12, Sura 4.74^

Yes, jihad means struggle and fight but it is more to do with one’s own internal struggle fighting against temptation. Not fighting against the enemies of Islam.

The verse 4:74 is related to an actual battle where a high number of Muslims were killed. So, the ‘enemies of Islam’ refers to whichever group of people who wanted the Prophet Mohammad and his followers dead at that time.

As far as I know no one else is assured of salvation in Islam. Mohammed said that he was not certain of it. So if a young man feels he has led a sinful life and is unlikely to be able to do enough good deeds to outweigh his sins, the only way he can certainly avoid hell according to Islam is by taking part in jihad.

I have absolutely no idea what this is all about. Pure fabrication. Total BS.

Muslims, including young Muslim men are encouraged to follow the 5 pillars of Islam which include:

1) Believe in one God
2) Daily prayers
3) Fasting during Ramadan
4) Zakat – giving money to Charity
5) Pilgrimage to Mecca. Once in one’s lifetime if you can afford it.

I am not offended when people discussed radical Islam. I am aware that there are extreme Sunni movements such as the Salafism in Aceh, Indonesia and Wahhabism originating from Saudi Arabia.

I think a practising Muslim who has studied the Quran will know a tad more than any of us, and is supremely arrogant to suppose that anything else could be true.
Would be like a Muslim supposing they know all about Christianity and the Bible simply because he/she knows a couple of chapters from one gospel but nothing else.
A little knowledge of anything is a dangerous thing.
I for one would not suppose to know the least thing about Islam but I do know Muslims who have lived alongside us for years and they are much the same as us. I have never known an Islamic extremist and have no wish to, nor I suppose do our Muslim neighbours.

Why would it be difficult to understand petra if approached with a certain amount of intelligence and an open mind regardless of your own belief system? And why bring Christianity into the mix again?

Nannee49

Skye17 quoted passages of the Q'uran very clearly way upthread.

I don't know what more information is needed other than to read those teachings to gain a clearer knowledge of the Islamic belief system.

It would be difficult for Christian to understand the scriptures in the Quran unless you are a non Muslim but have studied the book.

Oh no Nannee. There’s lots more to find out than that.

That’s why this thread is such a disappointment.

Skye17 quoted passages of the Q'uran very clearly way upthread.

I don't know what more information is needed other than to read those teachings to gain a clearer knowledge of the Islamic belief system.

Lathyrus3 I think that sixandahalf is saying that we need input from someone who actually knows about Islam, I don’t, and am pretty sure that you don’t either, so is a discussion based upon assumptions and preconceptions. Would welcome input from any Muslim members who can offer much more than just conjecture.

Well you won’t find much information on Islam on this thread sixsndahalf.

I’ve scrolled back through the current postings and the vast majority are about other religions, predominantly Christianity.

It’s not really a wide discussion at all.
More a “not’s let talk about that !”

I think there was only one comment on the content of Skye’s informative posts.

For me it's all about control, whether it relates to a patriarchal theocracy or a totalitarian regime of either the far right or far left persuasion. A complete subjugation of the masses. Theocracies are just as awful as any other ideology they rule by fear. The iron grip of churches has pretty much been broken, now swathes of them have fallen into disrepute and we have the freedom to cherry pick what we find acceptable.