And while we're on the subject

I like it for the entertainment value too, gramps, so I'm glad you do too, and thank you for saying so

Thanks, gramps. That suits me too. I like a good debate but don't get riled by opposing opinions.

Just reading this thread has freed me up from some minor guilt about my intentionally questioning post on the badger cull question. I have now found others enjoy challenging opinions and having a good debate.

Long live controversy and Gransnet.

Thank you Ladies , one and all.

I am filled with a deep glow of satisfaction, being able to mix with you very elegant and charming young Ladies.

I use the word "young", advisedly, as you are all young in Spirit , which shows up in your postings!

("Who is this silly old codger"?, I hear you say.
"Just ignore him - perhaps he'll go away"!)

Nae! gramps
All we charming ladies say...please stay. You are a gem.

Lil's bar has strayed on to this thread!

gramps, Have you brought some communion wine?

merlot .

Gramps, we don't mind you fishing for compliments when you're so charming about it .

Mmm.

Oh dear, you noticed my irresistable urge for an ego trip!
I'm not really a "big head", it just seems like it to other people!
I'm quite shy in a crowd, but on a Forum I'm just a name, with character, hiding away like a shy violet!

OK Ariadne.
I'll quietly slip back to Lil's bar.

Merlogran - The wine is on the TT table. take care that the straw doesn't go up your nose!

Don't worry, Gramps. I prefer drinking to sniffing it.

Sniff it first, to make sure it's not the bottle with the weedkiller in. or the disinfectant!

JO4 you and Lily are not the only Christians on here - count me in too! I don't have a problem with anyone questionning my beliefs (lets face it they are all going to hell anyway - sorry couldn't resist that one!) All I ask is that question the belief if you want, but please don't mock the belief.

I may not be able to convince those of you who don't believe but my beliefs give me a great deal of comfort and strength when I need it.

Barrow, I would never mock your beliefs - I once held them myself. I find great strength in humanism, but don't use it as a weapon to belittle Christian faith, as long as that faith is not perverted to the extent that it does harm.

barrow, I'm glad you find comfort in your religion. I think my mother does too.

However, what is questioning to one person may well seem like mockery to another, epsecially if the questioning is about something dear to them. It's the same for everyone – an atheist is as liable to feel that their beliefs are mocked as a theist. Also, some really wacky beliefs, such as those held by the Mormons, who also claim to be christians, and those of the suicidal islamist bombers, are surely only worthy of mockery?

Barrow - I neither mock nor question anyone's beliefs in a god - I just don't share them. I am not sure what you want atheists to say - if we don't believe, we don't believe. I don't even ask people why they believe what they do - religious belief is based on emotion, not logic, so there is no point in asking for reasons. Some people feel the need of a faith, and as long as that faith does not impinge on the welfare and freedom of others, good luck to them.

What I was trying to say, and probably making a pigs ear of it, is that I don't mind if someone tells me they don't believe in God, I don 't mind if they question me on why I believe. I can even accept jokes about my beliefs - I have a friend who refers to God as my invisible friend!

As for the beliefs of people like the Mormons, whilst I may disagree with them, I can still respect their deeply held beliefs.

As for the Islamist bombers, their beliefs are a corruption of true Islamic beliefs. I have spoken to Muslims who tell me that nowhere in their holy teachings is it stated that they should go out and kill non believers. Many of their beliefs are similar to Christianity, for example they believe Jesus was a real person the difference is they do not believe he was the Son of God, but a was a prophet.

I completely understand why some people wish to be atheists and I do think Richard Dawkins put forward a powerful argument in the God Delusion. However, I've decided I'm still a believer although I don't practice. Catholics get a very bad press, which I know they deserve on many counts, but I know my mother found her religion a great comfort to her in the last few years of her life and she had a lot of support from her church, I think unfortunately everyone has decided that all priests are a bad lot and in some ways I feel sorry for those trying to do a good job. I also understand why some Christians feel what they believe is often derided and possibly frowned upon, why is it so wrong to wear a cross and chain to work for heaven sake and how did we ever arrive at this ridiculous state we appear to be at where in a supposedly Christian country some Christians feel marginalised for their beliefs. When I was growing up one of the things I hated the most about the Catholic church was the way it foisted it's doctrines on people who subscribed to different faiths such as Jews and Muslims during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. I find it quite alarming now that hardline Muslims wish to do this around the world, it's like being dragged back to the Middle Ages. Equally, the Christian right in America come across as a damn scary lot. I don't care what people believe or not believe, just don't be too evangelical about it either way.

You can't assume that active Gnetters are"anything" just from reading posts. There may be many reasons for not responding and people can feel just as strongly either way but decide to "let it go". As with any sort of survey, statstical results can be very misleading. For instance the report recently that "where 30 mph speed limts had been reduced to 20 mph, there had been a 50% increase in accidents". True - but only because whereas in the previous year there had been twofatalities, in the following year there were three . So while the figures may be accurate, there is a lot more information which is relevant before you can draw conclusions.

I'll say it again because the confusion appears to persist: respecting people and accepting that they can hold any beliefs they like, is not the same as respecting beliefs. I respect Mormons as people just as much as I respect anyone else. I do not respect Mormon beliefs just as much as I respect some other beliefs. I respect the Mormons' right to choose to hold certain beliefs; I do not respect the beliefs. I respect the Mormons' right to talk about their beliefs; I even respect their 'right' to go on missions with the purpose of spreading their beliefs, even though I think religious missions are immoral. I still don't respect the beliefs because I think the beliefs are idiotic.

I respect the people who lived on the islands of St Kilda. I don't respect their belief that pouring milk onto a stone would keep their cows healthy.

I respect Anders Breivik's right to a fair trial in Norway, and I respect his right to humane treatment while in jail. I do not respect the beliefs he has which made him act the way he did.

Why don't people understand the difference? It is not beliefs that we should respect, but people.

BaNana - I don't 'wish' to be an atheist - I just am!
I think Bags, myself, and many others have said repeatedly that we do not want to interfere with anybody's right to hold any beliefs they want and practise any religion they want, so long as they do not try to impose those beliefs on us, or they are not harmful to others.
Comments suggesting that atheists are less moral, kind or charitable than believers are so obviously ridiculous that they hardly warrant a response.
There are as many differences in the personalities of atheists as there are in any large group of people. The only thing we all have in common is our lack of belief in any supernatural being.
I don't think people in general, including the atheists I know, hold anything against individual Catholics unless they have been proved to be abusers, etc.
My hostility is towards the organisation and those at the top of it who have failed to protect the vulnerable.

I have found these posts interesting. I imagine lots of people have been quiet because they are not really sure what they believe or lean towards spirituality rather than religion or atheism. I do feel sorry for people who have to live their lives pretending to believe in a religion they don't find any truth in. Who really knows, no one is the expert.

Yes sorry, wrong wording should have said "are" atheists.

Just a thought.
Should atheists be called realists?
Because, maybe atheism has a negative connotation?