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John Rutter on religion

(158 Posts)
Mishap Fri 28-Dec-12 21:32:13

I have just come across this interview with John Rutter the composer and I find it absolutely delightful - I identify with it so strongly - and his extraordinary personality shines through. I have edited it heavily, as the original is long (and can be found here: http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/DO/filmshow/ruttertx1.htm). I think the first and last sentences are fascinating!

"I am friend, fellow traveller, and agnostic supporter of the Christian faith; in my early days, people described themselves by default as Church of England if they didn't really have any religious affiliation...........I sang in the chapel choir and was always interested in religious studies, but somehow being a non-joiner became a habit; although I think I probably was religious in quite a powerful sense when I was young and into my twenties, not least because I felt so lucky as my career began to take off and things began to go well for me.......... a kind of theology of gratitude; probably can't take it very far because what happens when something goes wrong in your life? - the sense that there must be some benevolent deity behind all this is a bit like American religious thought; when I began to travel to America I started to meet an awful lot of Christians;....... the American faith world contains some of the very finest and most searching of theology and religious thought and practice, and some of the worst; I have experienced the full spectrum; ........ if I wanted to be honest about my own faith journey it has been backwards over the years; I am afraid what slightly began to sow the seeds of doubt was seeing the absolute certainty of religious adherents in America, and some of the harm that that certainty could lead to; I started by thinking there must be many paths to God and went from there to a rather tougher position which is that the universe is basically numbers, and in some sense mathematical and a lottery; if there is a controlling deity he is a bit like a Mafia don who is capable of doing good and charitable things, but also almost takes pleasure in doing malicious and harmful things, sowing the seeds of long-running dissent and problems; that is hard to reconcile with the Christian concept of a loving God; I don't find it helpful either to say that you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus; numerous of my religious friends say that if you are not born again and if Jesus is not your personal friend, then you are not a true Christian; I always remember the words of the Rev. Professor Charles Moule, a most searching theologian, who said he was perfectly sure he had only been born once; .........; people sometimes have asked me whether the fact that my son was killed affects my faith position; it happened in 2001 when he was nineteen and a student here at Cambridge, and he got run over crossing Queens’ Road one night; completely unforeseen and random, but I think that the answer is no, as by then I wouldn't have described myself as a believing Christian; on the other hand, you have to consider the alternatives; a world without any churches or space for religious thought or contemplation, or based only on material values, would be a hell; in a sense, if you believe the specific doctrines of the faith, I think that just the statement it makes about how man should not live by bread alone, is immensely important; music is a part of that because it is useless in a literal sense, you don't have to have music to survive, yet it has always been there; imagining a world without it is impossible, as is a world without faith; even though you might say that religion is an invention of man, I don't think it invalidates its worth; ....... it began to look to me as if the whole edifice of religion was a man-made construct; I do remain hugely sympathetic to the church, its music, its liturgy, its traditions, and, with some caveats, its ministry; on the whole, the Church I was baptised into, is trying to do good in a difficult situation, and is making a statement on behalf of qualities like compassion, forgiveness, charity, that everybody would support; I would be heartbroken if the Church of England closed its doors tomorrow; I hope to be buried in a country churchyard with a funeral service according to the 1662 Prayer Book, and all my favourite pieces of music; I suppose that is wanting it both ways - both the trappings without necessarily subscribing to the doctrine; I think there are quite a lot of people like me; Vaughan Williams was similar in that he had a sense of generalised spirituality which was triggered by things like standing on top of the Malvern Hills and contemplating the beauty of nature, or walking through the west door of a cathedral and being awestruck by the grandeur and mystery of the building, or being inspired by 'Pilgrim's Progress'; I think he would not have called himself a Christian, yet his life was steeped in Christianity at every point; I am like that and my moral compass probably does derive in large part from Christian ethic and teaching; I owe Christianity a huge debt and it is rather ungrateful of me not to believe in it more."

Joan Wed 09-Jan-13 22:42:00

I rather enjoy these threads on religion. In fact, if I'm in the mood, I enjoy it when JWs or Mormons come round trying to sell their religions to me. I love a good argument. Well, the Mormons will join in and debate a little, but the JWs just quote stuff as if it is true because their 'Watchtower' says it is.

I've just remembered when I first rejected religion. Although I was christened C of E, as the church was just across the road, when we moved house I was sent to the local Baptist Sunday school as it was the nearest. At age 12 we were told it was time to be baptised (born again I suppose). We went to classes and were told we must have absolute faith. Well, I was doing science at grammar school and knew that there were no absolutes: we were taught that what is known now, would probably be changed by the time we grew up.

I told this to the teacher at Sunday school. He got very cross with me. I refused to go along with the baptism and walked out. I did go back as my parents liked their time alone on a Sunday, but after that it was just a lark - time with friends and flummoxed old Sunday school teachers, till I was 15 and my parents let me leave.

Elegran Wed 09-Jan-13 23:25:33

In my early teens I went to the Girls Guildry - sister organisation to the Boys Brigade, so I think it must have been Methodists. The leaders were middle-aged single women of that breed which churches seem to specialise in. I enjoyed most of the activities, which were things like sports, handwork and so on, with a short prayer at the start of the session, but occasionally we would get a religious talk from a lay peacher.

At one of them I was quite taken by the speaker, who had that knack of being inspiring without being too nauseatingly pious, and I sat with rapt attention - even thought that I could go for this religion stuff.

After the meeting I was standing at the bus-stop gazing blankly into space, still a bit in thrall to the sermon, when one of the leaders stopped by me. She had clearly been watching my face throughout the meeting, because she said "Well E* , are you saved?"

Seizing the monent like that was enough to put me off. Had she left me alone I might just have found myself "saved" but even at that age I didn't like being manipulated into emotions.

MusicBug Sat 20-Jan-24 22:35:21

Tacitus was a Roman...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus

Callistemon21 Sat 20-Jan-24 22:36:48

A 12 year old zombie thread 🤔

Deedaa Sat 20-Jan-24 22:40:23

I remember Germaine Greer saying "I may be an atheist, but I'm a Catholic atheist"

Dickens Sun 21-Jan-24 03:31:28

annodomini

I this context, I think some of you will appreciated this quotation from one of John Mortimer's autobiographical works:

'My unbelief doesn't mean that I could do without churches...

'Even as an unbeliever, I am part of a Christian civilization...Christianity has been responsible for me. The poetry I value, the art that is important to me, have existed in a Christian framework and can't be understood without reference to Christian beliefs, even when they are rejected or used as a cover for more ancient and pagan celebrations. the politics I have adopted come from the Sermon on the Mount by way of Victorian Christian Socialists and preachers in Welsh chapels. For this reason, if for no other, Christianity has to be treasured and learnt; without it we couldn't understand Shakespeare or Milton. Without the Bible, in the form it took before the new translation wrecked it, spoken English is reduced to the meaningless waffle now heard in law courts and the Houses of Parliament.'

My unbelief doesn't mean that I could do without churches...

As an atheist, I can so identify with this.

And would add that I could not do without choral music. I certainly could not do without Bach's Weihnachtsoratorium... the Christmas Oratorio. Or Mozart's Mass in C minor: Kyrie.

And I know I am not alone in this!

nanna8 Sun 21-Jan-24 06:50:15

The Presbyterian church I go to does not own a building, we meet in a rented school hall. There are negatives,of course, but quite a few positives too. The church is the people and no distractions. Funny that a lot of us volunteer to give meals to homeless people because I guess we are also homeless in a sense.