Gransnet forums

Religion/spirituality

Should we follow France's lead and ban face coverings?

(168 Posts)
Aka Fri 04-Jul-14 09:38:12

Following the European Court of Human Rights upholding the French ban on wearing the burka in public, there is an interesting letter in today's Times from Taj Hargey, a prominent Imam, who says Britain should follow France's example. He says 'There is no Koranic mandate for facial masks; it is not culturally common for Pakistani women to conceal their faces; and no one, including woman, has an unqualified right to dress as one pleases in public.'

He goes on to say that Muslim women are banned from concealing the faces in Mecca

I think this issues was debated on GN a while ago, but we have new members and I was interested in the decision of the European Court and Dr Hargey's letter.

thatbags Sat 05-Jul-14 09:35:58

And, yes, criticising the stupid people who enforce such crap ideas.

thatbags Sat 05-Jul-14 09:36:23

old age and HASTE! smile

HollyDaze Sat 05-Jul-14 09:50:51

Like I said before, it should be a matter of choice.

On a holiday, my husband, my children and myself climbed quite a steep hill to reach a hill-top church (in Greece I think it was) and my daughter and I were denied access due to the way we were dressed: shorts, t-shirt and no hat. We were told that if we wanted to enter the church, we would have to cover up and they would provide us with the necessary attire. As I wanted to go into the church, I happily agreed to wear the clothes they deemed 'proper'. I complain and tell them that they were being disrespectful to my culture and that I have the right to wear what I want to wear; I respected their culture and abided by it.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 10:00:33

thatbags, to go back to the wearing of a simple scarf in French schools, I meant it is forbidden to wear all scarves, EVEN IF they are brightly coloured, not just black. I think if I had been a student when the rule became law, I would have set up a movement asking other French girls to turn up to school wearing a scarf- to support them. For the Muslim girls, often very hard-working and successful in school- to be turned away, whilst other students wearing skimpy clothing, rebelious, rude and not working- must have seemed the embodiement of racism and rejection.

As said, I really feel uncomfortable when I meet women wearing the full burka, and to some extent the hijab- and would prefer them not to wear it, even if by choice- but not sure a ban would be helpful. But I do hate how racism can hide in quite a nasty way behind such issues.

Thatbags, you state Islam is more a culture- but we must not forget there are as many ways to be a Muslim as there are of beign a Christian. At my last school we had a couple of families that belonged to a Christian brethren- girls had to wear long skirts and socks, long sleeves and a scarf- and were forced to leave school at the earliest opportunity and not allowed to stay on in the 6th form either- despite one of them being desperate to.

I have many friends and family who are Muslims- none of them wear a scarf or any head covering- apart from one cousin in her 50s who has recently done the Hadj (pilgrimage to Mecca) and now wears a sylish pill-box with side veil- or any kind of 'muslim' clothing. They are good practising muslims to dress moderately, that is all.

Some of my Muslim 6th Formers told me often they were so glad their modest clothing and religion protected them - they were dismayed by the sheer explotation, as they saw it, of their English friends who felt compelled by peers, youth magazine, etc, of dressing like 'tarts' showing everything they'd got, and sexually exploited by the boys, etc.

Complex- it definitely is.

vegasmags Sat 05-Jul-14 10:07:30

granjura - a very sensible post, and I agree with you that this is a complex issue. The case that lead to the ban concerns a young woman of 24, who is a graduate and who insisted that no one was forcing her to cover her face - that it was her choice. It seems that no one was listening to her.

HollyDaze Sat 05-Jul-14 10:10:46

dressing like 'tarts'

That doesn't sound like a very tolerant attitude.

durhamjen Sat 05-Jul-14 11:30:23

How many women on here didn't dress like tarts in their teens, showing off everything they had?
That was no dress code. We did it to rebel.

Greenfinch Sat 05-Jul-14 12:41:57

And also to conform to the dress code of our peers. It would have seemed odd not to have worn a mini-skirt.

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 05-Jul-14 13:25:17

I think it was the schoolgirls, in granjura's post who used the phrase "dressing like tarts".

Some of the schoolgirls round our way dress like tarts. There's no escaping the fact. If the school lets them, they will.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 13:44:29

I'm afraid there is no escaping the 'dressing like tarts' thing - the truth is the truth. Go to any of our town centres at the week-end past 11pm and you will know exactly what they meant. I know this will make some of you angry- but this does NOT happen to the same extent anywhere on the continent- Short skirts is one thing- I am not talking about that. Come on.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 13:54:54

Here is a good illustration of what I meant- narrated by the best, David Attenborough. Go to any city in Europe, and you will never seen that kind of behaviour (unless they are Brits on holiday or a stag-do- one reason our country has such a bad reputation abroad- ask anyone in Barcelona and Budapest..). Tragic, I know.

I would be naïve to think that those girls do not have their dress-code manipulated by the youth press, the celeb press, and peer pressure. I used to talk to some of our 6th Formers who said they had to sleep with the boys and perform other sex acts- or they would have no friends. No THAT is tragic- and many of the girls are, in more ways than one, victims of a higher calibre than the muslim girls.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 13:58:27

Sorry, forgot to say. My muslim 6th formers were not intolerant or judgemental about the girls expected to 'dress like tarts' and the above- they actually felt very sorry for them, and felt privileged that their background and modest dress-code (some wore a scarf, none a burka or a hijab) protected them from such abuse. They felt sorry the girls parents didn't seem to care enough for them to want to protect them.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 14:18:31

youtu.be/dXZ-ijNAFVM

ooops forgot to put in the link.

HollyDaze Sat 05-Jul-14 14:21:56

I think it was the schoolgirls, in granjura's post who used the phrase "dressing like tarts".

Yes, I am aware of that - it was the Muslim schoolchildren using derogatory terms about their English counterparts, that was the point I was making. What may seem 'tarty' to them may not be 'tarty' to the girls concerned.

HollyDaze Sat 05-Jul-14 14:26:16

I'm afraid there is no escaping the 'dressing like tarts' thing - the truth is the truth.

The truth is that we would also see plenty of girls who do not dress in that fashion - you make it sound as though every English girl behaves like a tart when that simply isn't true.

Go to any city in Europe, and you will never seen that kind of behaviour

On a good note: comparing Europe with England, you won't see girls/women sitting behind plate glass windows offering their bodies for sale to anyone who passes and sees them. You won't see guady pink and gold buildings specifically built for prostitution either - saw plenty of those in Europe.

HollyDaze Sat 05-Jul-14 14:28:55

They felt sorry the girls parents didn't seem to care enough for them to want to protect them.

The sympathy probably goes both ways with our girls feeling sorry for them regarding FGM and arranged marriages for girls as young as 8 years old and boys being encouraged to be religious so that in the afterlife they can have access to 700 virgins. Suddenly, a bit of childish tarty dressing doesn't seem so bad by comparison.

rosequartz Sat 05-Jul-14 14:53:59

I agree Hollydaze.

Protection or total control?

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 05-Jul-14 14:57:01

Nothing wrong with Amsterdam's red light district.

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 16:51:24

A bit different really. We are talking here about adults who have made the choice, for whatever reason I will never understand (but that is beside the point) to become prostitutes. Not young girls going out on a Saturday night- are we?

Never of course said that all British girls dress like 'tarts'- but that this going-out dress code is practically inexistent in other parts of Europe. Ask any Brit who lives abroad to confirm this. Just like it would be daft to say all Muslim girls are forced into marriage or to dress in a burka (although % are much bigger the other way, I'm sure). I used to go and pick up daughters from town at 1 or 2 am- and it was just incredible- the lack of clothes and the behaviour. Same in any large uk town every week-end- surely you can't deny this.

In the meantime, European papers are full of the story of the young British woman who gave 24 blow-jobs in 2 and half minutes on a holiday to Magaluf, Mallorca- with the video shown all over u-tube, etc. The behaviour of too many young brits on hols is absolutely shameful overall.

Ana Sat 05-Jul-14 16:54:56

24??? In two and a half minutes??? That's about 6 seconds each...confused

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 05-Jul-14 16:58:20

grin

I saw a link to that story. Strangely enough, I did n't open it. grin

Elegran Sat 05-Jul-14 17:00:50

If she was only six seconds at each, I'd say the photographs were "posed" for effect and shock value.

The recipients didn't get much value, that is for sure, unless they had very sensitive hair triggers.

Ana Sat 05-Jul-14 17:05:48

grin

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 17:07:00

it's not about the 'satisfaction' factor for each recipient- but about the self-respect, or lack of ... and the culture behind it. Of course it was for effect- that is the whole point ;)

granjura Sat 05-Jul-14 17:07:43

jingle, it was all over the papers in Switzerland... difficult to avoid.