Should we follow France's lead and ban face coverings?

I haven't commented on this thread so far but I have to say I am quite disturbed by some of the comments about young English girls - I don't think it is ever acceptable to use the term 'tarty' or 'tarts' about young women whatever they may be wearing or doing.

And I also get a little tired of hearing how badly the English behave abroad. I do not believe they are unique in that respect. As for Amsterdam's red light district, it is an abomination and a disgrace that it should be seen as a tourist attraction. This is the reality:

elitedaily.com/news/world/this-video-will-change-what-you-think-about-the-red-light-district-in-amsterdam-video/

Oh for goodness sake. It was one bunch of schoolgirls describing how they saw the manner of dressing of another bunch. #highhorse

The red light district was any eye opener to me. Great fun to go round!

Actually it's a good way of managing prostitution that goes on in every city (and many towns). ie health of girls and clients point of view.

Very sobering nightowl.

Only watched the vid for a few seconds. Never saw anything like that when we walked through.

Do you all really believe everything that goes onto the internet?

That's the only positive jingle. It isn't hidden away behind closed doors and (I imagine) the girls are free to come and go as they please. When we went round The red light district it was late afternoon and one of girls was reading a magazine while another was doing a bit of ironing - perhaps there are men who are turned on by housework!

interesting article

It's much better to go at night Nfk.

I especially like this bit.

"Amsterdam prides itself, and rightly so, on its wholly liberal and tolerant attitude, embracing the fact that people may be into prostitution, soft drugs and pornography-and this is only human. So instead of criminalizing everything, this very upfront city wears its heart on its sleeve-what you see is generally what you get. Enjoy the honesty of it all, as you won’t find it anywhere else."

And these days the local authority does keep an eye on it.

How did we get onto Amsterdam on here?

Still on my high horse jingl. You have to watch the vid to the end to get the point.

And yes, I know young girls will use the term tarty to refer to other young girls, but I'm not sure grans should be going the same

To sum up my views in a nutshell - I don't approve of the objectification of women, whether that takes the form of pimping them, or dressing them in sacks to preserve their 'modesty' and protect men from their own lust. I am not comfortable with women choosing to do these things when they are symbols and tools of oppression elsewhere.

'twas ever thus. Oldest profession, etc. Some things you will never change. Better for it to be well managed. IPO.

From what I have read and heard, many women feel much freer and safer when they wear the full burka. They are then relieved of the non stop harassment by men who make sexual comments and advances to them. They also feel that they don't have to spend so much time doing their hair/make up as they will not be on constant show. My Muslim friend who wears a headscarf for covering also regularly comments on the freedom that she feels when she wears her scarf.
Perhaps we need an honest discussion about the wearing of the niqab and burka so that we can try to gain a greater understanding of its importance, where the wearing of it is totally inappropriate and how we can build up relationships with the women that choose to wear this attire and those who feel it is a major barrier in communication.

But isn't it an illusory freedom that requires a woman to adapt how she dresses in order to protect herself from men's advances? A bit like telling women not to go out alone at nights so they won't get raped? It's the men that have the problem and I happen to think we have pandered to that attitude for enough centuries already.

If men didn't go out at night, they would never be mugged or knifed. Should they be expected to stay at home so as not to tempt honest men into attcking them?

Oh for goodness sake. It was one bunch of schoolgirls describing how they saw the manner of dressing of another bunch. #highhorse

I doubt that would have been the reaction if English schoolgirls had retaliated in a 'likewise' fashion - they'd have been called racists or Islamaphobes; can't have it both ways.

I wonder if people would feel the same as they do now if it were men who 'chose' to wear/had to wear burkas and whose womenfolk could more or less dress like everyone else and it never crossed their minds that their own faces shouldn't be on show because, obviously, that's just normal?

They are then relieved of the non stop harassment by men who make sexual comments and advances to them

Non-stop? Really?

I would think that the burkha, in a Western country, is more likely to attrract attention - may even be seen as 'forbidden fruit' by some.

Nightowl- I am afraid, and I take no joy in this at all (as I have 2 daughters who grew up in UK and are still there- and taught 6th Formers for over 30 years- most were decent, hard-working and wonderful)- that that kind of behaviour abroad is really a British specific problem.

Won't put any links here, but perhaps Google something like

why do young British tourists behave so badly abroad

and see what come up. It is a very serious situation indeed, with terrible consequences, including many rapes, death. Look at the pictures and see how many of the girls are dressed (if you can call it dressed). If I had to choose, between that option and the burka- I think I'd go for the burka, honest.

^Oh for goodness sake. It was one bunch of schoolgirls describing how they saw the manner of dressing of another bunch. #highhorse

I doubt that would have been the reaction if English schoolgirls had retaliated in a 'likewise' fashion - they'd have been called racists or Islamaphobes; can't have it both ways.^

Why would English schoolgirls call traditionally dressed muslim girls "tarty"?

Yes there was an article in the infamous DM today about the behaviour of young British women in particular, in Magaluf. I will not put a link as I am sure you can find it if you wish and I am not very good at putting in links on my tab.

In response to an earlier post, I do not remember dressing in a tarty or provocative fashion when I was a teenager, perhaps I was very boring.

There are articles in the Independent and other newspapers, not just the DM. Also discussions on travel Forums and serious concern expressed by British embassies abroad, insurers, etc, etc.

It does not mean all young Brits will behave thus, but it would be very naïve and even putting one's head in the sand- to deny it is a British problem- same as the terrible drunken behaviour, litter, etc, etc, in all British cities at week-ends- which just does NOT happen to the same extent elsewhere. It is sad, and tragic- ignoring it will NOT make it go away, sadly.

I agree that it is a very big problem, granjura, and not something we Brits can be at all proud of.

rosequartz, it depends on how old you are - if you were a teenager in the fifties or very early 60s you probably didn't wear mini-skirts, but my friends and I did and I don't recall boys/men lusting after us (apart from the odd, and quite welcome at the time, wolf-whistle!).

We certainly didn't display any cleavage though - I think that's the main difference today, breasts have to be big and on display...

My comment would be why do you have to remove a crash helmet when paying for petrol in a garage if a person wearing a full face covering would be allowed access ? This seems unfair discrimination against any motorcyclist. I would also adopt the French secular system of education and get rid of faith schools.

Yes, probably quite old, Ana

I was in my early 20s and married when mini skirts came in and DH was horrified that I would wear one to work. But they were shortish skirts, not belts, no cleavage and no midriffs!

This thread is reminding me of the 3 Yorkshire Men Sketch - "short, it were a bloody pellet" springs to mind as a grumpy comment on the length of skirts.

We were young once, and I recall my parents wishing their daughters would wear something a bit more stylish than levi's, old fur coats (£1 on the local market) etc, and also cut our hair, not wear ear rings (so common mum thought). Reading this thread, you wouldn't think many of us had ever been anything other than simply perfect in every way.

I don't dispute that British society has a problem with excess, whether it's fast food, alcohol or less than flattering clothing. One of the Manchester art galleries had a large exhibition of Hogarth prints some years ago. It was glorious, though depressing as the sketches were of Gin Lane, drunken women, gin in one hand, baby at the breast, or ignored at her feet etc. It reminded me of the child protection cases I was working with during that period. Almost without exception, drugs, alcohol and violence were at the root of the families difficulties. These isles seem to have a long history of excess. It's part of our culture, but not the dominant part. Let's not lose a sense of perspective. Polarising girls who dress like 'tarts' and girls who wear a burka doesn't add a lot to the discussion I don't feel.