If you want to ask a question

Thank you.

Soontobe I think it was brave of you to initiate this thread and I do not doubt your sincerity, as bearing witness is not easy. However it was perhaps rash to offer answers on Christianity " in general" when it is clear that there are members who have perhaps a deeper and wider grasp of theology, of the Bible and of matters pertaining to religion and these have fazed you. It has stimulated discussion however which is always a good thing!

durhamjen - difficult question really.
I read the bible most days, sometimes say a page, sometimes just a few verses. I have been doing that for about 30 years.
I have not read it through from begining to end. Tried that about 3 times in my life, and as like a lot of people, got really bogged down about 5 chapters in with all the Old Testament rules.

Riverwalk - I am happy to continue answering questions. I didnt want people to think I was sermonising.
I have never done a sermon, not even sure I am able to do one.

Agus. Fine.

Mishap - I can see what you are saying!

Galen - I dont know. But the Lutherian church is the most like the Methodist I have heard, so that may well be right.

Ariadne - I realise that you are not attacking.
I did not realise that the Church of England teach about non punishment. Do you mean non punishment after repentance?

soon I have no idea what your reference to PMs is about. I do know I have never PMd you so I think we should probably drop the matter all together now.

The nice thing about predestination is that you can eat, drink, debauch and be merry - sounds like a plan!

"Have not heard" (typing too fast!)

I have to come back here; soontobe you say that you do have not heard of my understanding of the shift from the Old to the New Testaments, and yet this is what I was taught at church, in confirmation classes and Bible study, as a child in a Christian family - not my ideas at all. What I know about Christianity is what the Church taught me. (Church of England, by the way.)

I am honestly not attacking, just explaining what I learned. I don't necessarily believe it now, but it is an articulate discourse.

The doctrine of predestination. Didn't the early Lutherans believe in it?

"Condemned before we are born"!!!???

I am not sure that there are many christians who would endorse that idea which would have to come from a perverse and sadistic deity, which I am quite sure is not how they perceive god.

That's a bit of a cop-out!

You asked for questions.

No, I'm sure most members don't want to hear everything in the Bible as we can read it for ourselves but you did put yourself up for scrutiny!

Yes feetlebaum - that central tenet of redemption through sacrifice is completely meaningless to me. "Died for our sins" is one of the phrases that really and truly has no meaning whatsoever to me - it sounds like gobbledygook. Sacrifice is an appalling idea as you say and is relevant to the thinking of the times, which we have risen above now thank goodness.

I would be the first to say that there are sections of the bible that express universal truths and stimulate debate and contemplation about right and wrong, and that is where its value lies; but to regard it as the words of a supreme being when it is known (and acknowledged by most christians) to be the writings of men from many centuries ago is unjustifiable and incomprehensible.

How well do you know the bible, soontobe? How much have you studied it?

Jesus was sent by His Heavenly Father. My guess, for what it is worth, is that he wouldnt have wanted to come.
He bore everyones' sins. It must have been horrific.

I have a theory about original sin. But I may be way off.
In the bible, it says that God knows us before we are born. So may be a few of us are condemned before we are born? I agree, a horrific thought. It may tie in with the parable of the weeds, which says that some, and I imagine it is only a tiny number, are born of the devil and not of God.

I am not sure that this forum wants to hear everything that is in the bible, so it may be time for me to stop posting.

Not really any discussion to be had here, is there?

As regards my cleaning the mansions joke, it assumes I get to Heaven in the first place.
Jesus will judge me along with everyone else at the End. So I will have to wait and see.

Ah there's the central question... Redemption through the suffering of a murdered man. How is that supposed to work, exactly? I suppose it is an extension of the Jewish notion of the scapegoat - my own reaction to it is that it is an appalling idea, fit only to be condemned with that other disgusting notion of 'original sin', by which the newest born baby is stigmatised...

All fine mcem

What did Jesus mean when he said "In my Father's house are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you."

I have always taken this as it stands. It has never occured to me to take it otherwise.
I too like it a lot. Very comforting.
Some christians do say, as I do, that we hope we dont have to clean any!
[I do hope it is ok to inject some humour here!]

Soon you've made a sincere effort to fight your corner but it's clear that there have been many comments and questions which have left you flummoxed - and that's hardly surprising. It was pretty brave of a relative newcomer to jump in at the deep end without really being familiar with the cut and thrust encountered on a controversial thread like this one. All credit to you for that.
I wish you well but feel that, for me, there is no point in participating further.
NB I am not stomping off 'in the huff'!!!

I can't believe God was behind some of the stuff in the Old Testament

A lot of the people mentioned in the Old Testament, repeatedly broke Gods rules. And were unrepentent. They were give several chances to repent. And even had the benefit of many prophets. But they chose not to listen.

But isn't the thwory that the NT God saw that the retributional, patriarchal system needed reforming, and that therefore Jesus was sent to suffer for all our sins, so that we didn't have to be punished. And that therefore, since we do not need to fear divine retribution, we must lead our own moral lives and make our own decisions? Which is actually, a difficult thing to do!

Unfortunately for all of us, I dont think that, or I am not aware that there is anywhere at all in the bible that states that we wont be punished if we have not said sorry for our sins.

The "pick and choose which bits to believe" approach to the bible is the only one possible as it is so contradictory, and, as others have said, man-written under circumstances that mean it cannot be taken literally. This is why I am concerned about those who quote the bible as a justification for their actions; it is a cop-out, as what they are really saying is that they justify their actions on the basis of those bits of the bible that they agree with

I do think there are quite a number of christians who do this.

I would hope that I am not one.

Actually I will come back to this question again, as I cant quite think of all the right words to say at this point.

Agus. I didnt mean for it to happen that way. I dont have anyone who regularly pms me for instance.

Good for you, soon! Whatever else the Bible is, it is a collection of material which has kept a large number of highly intelligent people arguing, thinking and discussing important issues for several thousand years. And, at least as important, it has provided guidance and comfort for many of us. Worth something, surely?