From the Humanist Association - discuss

Are children in CofE schools exposed to narrow religious teaching?
The Church considers it essential that children learn about the major faiths represented in Britain today as well as having a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief. Therefore, all RE syllabuses taught in church schools are multi-faith and require students to learn about at least the six major world faiths. The recent non-statutory Framework for RE reinforces this requirement.

Do CofE schools indoctrinate children?
Of course not. While Church of England schools naturally have a particular concern for enabling children to understand the Christian faith, especially as expressed in the Anglican Church, our schools are committed to nurturing, encouraging and challenging those of all faiths and none. Indoctrination is where only one point of view is represented as true and others are diminished or ignored. In our schools, good RE enables students to learn about Christianity and other faiths as part of their general education and also part of their own spiritual development.

Nevertheless, as in all schools, parents have the right to withdraw their children from RE and collective worship.

Not at all medieval

This thread is like politics, we don't expect to change anyone's view, but at least it's something to chew over.If we really want to make sure that young Muslim people are not radicalised, then faith schools of all types would have to be abandoned in favour of secular ( again, not atheist!) primary and secondary schools.Boys and girls of all races and religions mixed together.Sounds good to me.It won't happen quickly, but in time, I think it will, and people in the future would wonder why it took so long.
Non Christian ( or lapsed Christians/ atheists/ agnostic) often queue to get their children into state church schools because they are known to be fairly strict and get better exam results, and that's why people lie and alter addresses etc.Nothing to do with religion.

I did say I thought state education should be secular, but I don't think that most Anglican schools in this country place a huge emphasis on religion, they are popular because they offer a good standard of education.

http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/en/49829/free-choice-of-schools-raises-educational-standards
And not all is perfect in Swiss education according to the article above.

My oldest DD attended a C of E infant school, and I did not notice any indoctrination or overt religious atmosphere in the school; I do not even know if the teachers were practising Christians. Then all three DC attended secular schools, they may have been secular but even so, they did all have links to the local church. The local RC primary school has, of course, very strong links to the church and there is an emphasis on religious education.

Two DGC attend a primary which is secular, but again, it has links to the local Anglican church. The other DGC attends a RC school which, although brief prayers are included each morning (generally praying that they are kind to each other) there is no overt indoctrination.

Annie - I wasn't critisicing you, only agreeing.
From my experience of faith schools, they have the courage of their convictions to promote a code of behaviour and approach to learning which leads to pupils with self respect, also to good academic results.

.Granjura, Switzerland has church schools and private schools so not all children are given equal education

Your description of your ideal "local school" describes exactly our village First School (Cof E) as were many if not most rural primaries in the past. All he children in the village aged 5-8 go to it. They are not all middle class white card carrying Anglicans, the little son of our new Asian village shopkeeper goes (Hindu, I believe) and walks up with my next door neighbour's little boy. We have "all sorts" plus an admixture from the neighbouring town because it is such a good little school with a flourishing PTFA and community use of the buildings.
Let's not be so negative.

FAiths schools: now even the Church agree they are unfair- is the title of the article mentioned above.

Of course I am talking about Senior Clerics in the UK AnnieB- (as said, the whole discussion does not apply to where I live and most and perhas all of Europe- all children here go to the same school as other children in the area, poor, rich, from religious homes of all faiths and those from non religious home- that is the law and there is NO other options).

This from an article in the Guardian by Polly Toynbee, re the Bishop of Oxford in this case, You can find lots more:

So it is a great step forward that the Bishop of Oxford, new chair of the church's education board, accepts the facts and proposes only 10% of places be reserved for the faithful: "We may not get the startling results that some church schools do because of getting some very able children, but we will make a difference to people's lives."

He echoes a strong strand among liberal vicars uncomfortable at running schools excluding the most needy. But will it happen? Remember the almighty row from Catholics and the Daily Mail at a failed Labour plan to reserve just a quarter of places for non-churchgoers. It may be far too late. The bishop admits he has no power, since governors run and often own faith schools, while parents in pews expect a place in reward for their prayers. Will the other 90% of children need to prove no CofE connections? That 10% selection will still be enough to make these desirable schools, so parents will still move into their catchments. (end of quote).

Yes, some CofE primary schools, follow the National Curriculum and also ensure that the children are well prepared for the entrance exams to selective secondary (Grammar) schools.

A system that leaves parents with the choice of 'lying and deceiving to get children in a good school' or sending child to a sink school

No, I cannot accept this.
A person takes responsibility for their own actions, not blaming the "system" That is dishonest
"Honest, m'lud, I had to nick that telly/loot that shop/break that speed limit/ break into that house/fiddle my tax return, * because of the system* "
Not my morality.
And in fact this is totally at variance with your second point,because if, instead of ducking and diving and manipulating the system, committed parents got on to the governing body, combined their talents and thinkng and exerted pressure on the Head, governors and staff (I have seen this done) a "failing" school (we do not use term "sink" because of social connotations ) can and will be turned around.

I think that the preface "Christians believe" is a necessity in ALL schools (Christian or not) when these matters are being discussed. Anything less is an act of dishonesty.

No senior clerics I know believe as the senior clerics in your country believe , and I am speaking of three arch bishops and several bishops

The assumption that a Christian home is automatically a better home, is just so wrong and prejudiced. We need children to grow in a strong moral framework I sincerely agree. Watching their parents cheat and lit in groves to fraudulently get kids into Church school (and the children do have to be taught to confirm and repeat the lies, of course) is hardly conducive, is it?

Do you not think that the children who are told to lie about where their live get a good Christian or moral example from their parents?

A system that leaves parents with the choice of 'lying and deceiving to get children in a good school' or sending child to a sink school- is not responsible for the lies and deception, but certainly encourages it. Many Senior clerics acknowledge this, and accept that Church schools have a much lower % of children from deprived backgrounds of every kind.

You will continue to twist my words and my meanings of course.

Where all the children go to the local school- parents with influence, parents able to support those schools in any way- fight to ensure their children get the best education and care possible- and this ensures all the children benefit, not just their own. I see this here all the time- the professionals, business people, millionaires and all, send their kids to the local school- allowing children of all backgrounds to mix and grow together- and much better mobility and long-term social cohesion. Same in Northern Europe countries- brilliant.

bags there's been a considerable body of research into children's perceptions of faith which would suggest that many do have strong perceptions of transcendence. I'm coming round more and more to the idea that some individuals have this strongly developed sense of faith and others don't. It isn't a matter of thinking about it and weighing up the facts and proof, belief doesn't operate in that way. Perhaps it's brain chemistry?

Well said Alea

If as it has been claimed on another thread that many children are brought up in bad homes we need more church schools if as been claimed here they are taught about faith which means the teachings of Christ

Thank you thatBags- spot on.

What I would dream of, is good schools for all children, irrespective of social class or religion. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Some CofE schools are also used as free prep schools for private secondary schools- with the curriculum biased towards preparation for entrance exams, etc

All state schools are subject to OFSTED inspections, SATS testing and the National Curriculum.
So "Private prep schools? " Hardly.
Anyway I thought your objection was to the teaching indoctrination of religion? Not the academic standards.
I think we need to bear in mind term "faith" school covers everything from village C of E First Schools to Jewish schools to extremist Muslim schools in certain of our cities. As such it is an emotive term. Before the blessed Tony Blair gave the go ahead to faith schools of every hue, we had some excellent primary and secondary C of E schools, usually sought after for the quality of the education, the caring environment, the pastoral care and the standards. Many of my DDS' classmates 30+ years ago in their S London church primary school were of Asian parentage, whether recent or second generation immigrants I have no way of knowing. It was a genuinely mixed school -socially too. That was not "medieval", that was not indoctrination, the annual Christingle service or Nativity Play at the parish church in no way segregated or indoctrinated the children. Many of my atheist friends expressed no objection, as most of us, practising Christians or not, enjoy a children's nativity play.
Thanks to Tony Blair's "inclusivity"(?) the baby has now been thrown out with the bath water, but why the tub thumping alarmist accusations of the "dreadful things" that go on, or the nigh-criminal lengths parents will apparently go to?(Also the subject of a long and tedious thread some time ago)
IMHO emotions are being whipped up, , harsh words spoken and well, it sounds a lot like <stirring>

So church schools are to blame for some parents who lie, this means shops are to blame for shop lifters, banks for bank robbers , this sounds so fifties sorry , when girls got themselves pregnant and a woman beaten up was asking for it

Luckygirl you miss my point. Non-Christians, or Christians working in a multi faith context might well say, 'Christians believe' but surely it's perfectly reasonable for Christians teaching in a Christian school to refer to central elements of their faith as matters of faith? Unless you think Christians don't really believe it?

I do not want good schools to close because I have a problem with faith- Where on earth did you get that from? For the umpteenth time today, I have no problem wiht religion- but only with the divisiveness it creates, which exarcebate social divisions and poverty. I could quote so many articles to that effect- an excellent one by Polly Toynbee and the Bishop of Oxford who himself agrees that Faith schools are unfair and prevent mobility of the poorest.

In the UK of course- it does not apply in other countries of Europe because schools are secular mostly- certainly where I grew up and where I now live- the question just does not arise.

I know people who have had their children baptised just to be on the 'list', then attended their local Church for as long as necessary 1 year approx before first child started school, fundraising too. And I know of several who lied about address, giving a grand-parent address, or even buying properties in the catchement area and pretending to live there, visiting several times a week- then re-sell at a good profit once the children we in the school, and more. The system encourages deception and 'fraud' - and parents do this NOT for religion, but the only alternative is a sink school. As Polly says, parents choose to 'pray' instead of 'pay'.

Actually, it's the parents' faith or lack of it that seems to play a part in some schools (getting kids baptised, etc, to increase their chances of going to a particular school). I don't think primary school children can be said to 'have' a religious faith of any kind.

I don't think jura wants to close good schools. I think she just wants those schools to not focus on faith, nor for their pupils' faith or lack of it to play any part whatsoever in whether they get a place at the school. In other words to make the good faith schools into good secular schools so that a good secular school is available to every child.

This does not disadvantage anyone who has a faith or wants their child to grow up with the same faith. Parents and religious leaders can do the teaching of religious doctrine and dogma and whatever and leave schools to do general education.

How anyone feels this would be an unfair system is beyond me.

Lilygran - I do mean exactly what my comment implies (well- more than implies - states) - it is taught as fact. I have watched teachers and vicars say to school children that Jesus rose from the dead, for instance, when what they should be saying is "Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead." I would have no problem at all with that.

There is an important difference between the two statements; given that in other lessons they are told that 2 + 2 makes 4. Thye have n means then of distinguishing faith from fact. The two statements are totally different - one is belief and the other is fact. It happens all the time in faith schools. The important preface that "this is what X believe" is omitted all the time. I am sure you know that.

You are quite right that because I do not share a faith does not indeed mean that it is wrong; but I do recognise that it is belief and not fact and to say otherwise to our children is a breach of trust.