Struggling with my Christian belief

No, no, I can't let that one go Trisher. When directly questioned about paying taxes Jesus replied "Render to Ceasar those things that are due to Ceasar and paid his taxes. (Albeit miraculously)

He also said I think, to give to Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and to give to God that which is God's.

Yes, should have written the whole thing ?

These instances make the headlines because they are so deeply damaging. It would take an infinity of nuns doing good deeds to outweigh the guilt and misery that their school teachings have instilled in so many, never mind the acts of outright abuse.

Kindness - that is all.

Some scientists believe that we are, or become, what we think, also that there is another dimension of existence which is made up of energy in which thoughts create patterns that become reality.
I would like to add two thoughts of what I think but it is impossible to be brief: one is that life after death might be like Peter Pan and the fairies - you have to believe to make it happen! When I was a teenager I read a lot of books about spiritualists etc one claimed that he had seen heaven (maybe a near death experience) and in one corner were a lot of people huddled together doing nothing - just waiting - while all around them were joyful, happy people. Who were these sad people? He said they were Christians who believed that they would be in limbo after death until Jesus returned, when they would all be resurrected and join him on earth. So they were waiting ......... . Just think, if you are going to a new country and are told by your guide that it only contains x and y, when you go there would you only be looking for x and y,, or would you look around just in case there is something else there? It is so important to have an open questioning mind.
Second - if heaven is a "spiritual" place, and only your soul, spirit, mind or whatever word you want to use, goes there (assuming that you do not believe in a bodily ressurrection) then it is logical that all the things we are attached to on this earth that make the body happy, will be irrelevant - clothes, make up, clubbing, films, computer games, tv, food, drink, sex, etc. If a person gets all their happiness from these things alone, then without a body they will be totally lost and have no idea what to do, think or how to 'be'. They could be in the most 'heavenly' place and not be aware of it, or care, or even want to be there. Whereas, a person who enjoys being with others, helping others, being caring and loving, acquiring knowledge, being inquisitive, open to new ideas - will love 'heaven' - will find people and things to appreciate, and even something to do there.
So, to 'enjoy' heaven, you need above all, to believe that there is life after death, and secondly, to become the sort of person that will enjoy the experience. If you deny this entirely you will not be in hell, it will be more like oblivion - the idea of death as the end of everything is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you have a niggling doubt, you may discover that there is life but not have the capacity to enjoy it to the full - there may be regret but still some degree of happiness. If you live your life on earth knowing that this life is just a step to that eternal life to come, and try to live in a way that does not harm, but enhances the lives of others, and cultivate virtues, then I am sure you will find heavenly joy when you die, regardless of whatever Faith you had on earth.

OK *Eglantine, I was wrong.
I still think the Romans didn't like Jesus because they thought he was a trouble-maker and a rebel.

Probably. They crucified for fun and entertainment though, as in the crucifixions along the Apian Way which were for no other reason than to make a spectacle. He may have just got caught up in something like that.

It was the people who made the choice, Christ or .Barabas

Yes, so I guess the Romans weren't that bothered which one they crucified.

It was "the will of the people"

Dear Hapgran,
I'm not a practicing Christian, so I'm not coming from that angle. I have read much of the Christian belief and I think there are a lot of things there that don't really apply. Whst I mean is this. The Bible and words of Jesus really only express love. To us and for us. I cannot see a being that loved his children actually going as far as casting them into everlasting Hell. What snout those that have never heard the Christian word or those born and dead before Christ? I do think humans added bits in here and there in the translation and handing down. I really cannot equate an infinite being of love and light doing something so horrible as sending a soul to Hell. I think we make our own Hell, right here on this earth. What God does is lifts people out of this hell and takes them to s better lace when they die. I would only accept the love and light that Christianity teaches. If it is
Good and pure then it cannot also be cruel and dark. Just my thoughts. If your religion helps you to be a better person then it's doing what it was meant to do. Those that don't believe will get to the nect life by anothe route. ?

A fascinating and enjoyable post Starbird. What struck me about it was the examples that may prevent some from recognising they are in heaven and/or being enriched by it may have allowed that lack of vision or their outlook on life here, to have made that less meaningful.

I think C.S. Lewis portrayed it brilliantly in 'The Last Battle' when at the end, some went into the barn and saw it beautifully decorated with a sumptuous feast while others simply saw an empty barn.

I agree Trisher and some of His own people regarded him as a rebel and a trouble maker.

For me MesMopTop hell would be a dark and for boding place because of the absence of God, His love and His light; that's how I see hell rather than another 'place' inhabited by demonic forces.

For me hell would be the abscence of God

I’m so pleased I was raised a devout atheist and humanist, death is final, it’s now that matters nothing else.

What makes the OP think that the older man was indeed wise?

What older man? !

The term 'knew' in days of yore...yes, aeons ago, meant intimacy.
By saying that X 'knew' Y you were saying that they had been intimate ie: had sex.
It's in the Bible.

God existed long before religion.
Therefore, millions of people never had the chance to be Christians - and why would God play favourites with a handful of 'believers' giving them a privileged place in Heaven?

If He created humans then he loves them all, without exception.

As others have said, the ideas of Heaven and Hell come from a very early 'punishment and reward' system to keep people in line so they would obey liturgical laws. The church fined them if they did not so it was profit-driven too

Surely we no longer believe that the wonderfully altruistic Muslim, Jewish and other non-Christian workers who give their lives in the service of others and their God, are condemned to hell?

Have you read any books by Bishop John Shelby Spong? He struggled with this too and I found his words extremely enlightening and comforting.

Did you know there's a theory that travellers in the ancient world saw the lands of Africa with its unbearable heat, savage beasts and dangerous snakes and insects - and that was the template for what later became 'Hell'.

Likewise, those who went to Norther lands, saw the Aurora Borealis, icebergs reflecting the sun like pearly gates and golden streets and this was the inspiration for Heaven with its blonde angels.

Thank you Bradfordlass. I have seen a few you tube clips of Bishop Spong. I am also reading a daily blog by Richard Rohr who explores such questions as well. I am still searching but have found many gransnet posts very thought provoking.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, can anyone tell me why all the prayers in the world will not prevent a good person dying. Cannot and have not, since time immemorial, stopped wars (AnnieBach's prayer for peace) dissent, anger among communties etc.
Please don't trot out the usual 'It's God's will' or 'He will only save us when we are at the brink of destruction', kind of responses becsuse if that's the case, it's a total waste of time praying.
It might make believers feel thst tgey are doing something but in real terms, regardless of prayers, the same outcome would prevail. It simply reinforces the belief that prayers 'saved' the person(s) or made a bad outcome marginally better.

becsuse/thst/tgey
because that they

I cannot answer your question Gabriella but as a Christian have prayed for a particular outcome that never came about.

When our son estranged himself from us more than 6 years ago and refused us any contact with our GC, I spent months praying, begging and pleading that God would bring him back to us; it didn't happen.

Eventually, without knowing why, I needed to accept that our son was lost to us. My faith and endless prayers did not bring back my boy but did give me the strength to walk away from his abuse and begin a new chapter in my life.

Just realised my original post spelt practising wrong! Anyway - definitely more questions than answers on this thread. I read a Tearfund prayer today which pointed back to faith, hope and love. Maybe I need to pray for all 3....

I find Cannon J John to be a useful source of strength. I like his sense of humour too. Try looking him up on the internet hapgran I am sure that will answer many of your questions.

Smileless2012
Your reply had me dumbstruck for a moment.
How terribly painful and I, who have no faith but as a mother, feel for you.
I salute you and your painful journey of acceptance and thank you for sharing that part of your life story.
I hope very much that you continue to create a happy future for yourself and those who love you.