Struggling with my Christian belief

OK *Eglantine, I was wrong.
I still think the Romans didn't like Jesus because they thought he was a trouble-maker and a rebel.

Some scientists believe that we are, or become, what we think, also that there is another dimension of existence which is made up of energy in which thoughts create patterns that become reality.
I would like to add two thoughts of what I think but it is impossible to be brief: one is that life after death might be like Peter Pan and the fairies - you have to believe to make it happen! When I was a teenager I read a lot of books about spiritualists etc one claimed that he had seen heaven (maybe a near death experience) and in one corner were a lot of people huddled together doing nothing - just waiting - while all around them were joyful, happy people. Who were these sad people? He said they were Christians who believed that they would be in limbo after death until Jesus returned, when they would all be resurrected and join him on earth. So they were waiting ......... . Just think, if you are going to a new country and are told by your guide that it only contains x and y, when you go there would you only be looking for x and y,, or would you look around just in case there is something else there? It is so important to have an open questioning mind.
Second - if heaven is a "spiritual" place, and only your soul, spirit, mind or whatever word you want to use, goes there (assuming that you do not believe in a bodily ressurrection) then it is logical that all the things we are attached to on this earth that make the body happy, will be irrelevant - clothes, make up, clubbing, films, computer games, tv, food, drink, sex, etc. If a person gets all their happiness from these things alone, then without a body they will be totally lost and have no idea what to do, think or how to 'be'. They could be in the most 'heavenly' place and not be aware of it, or care, or even want to be there. Whereas, a person who enjoys being with others, helping others, being caring and loving, acquiring knowledge, being inquisitive, open to new ideas - will love 'heaven' - will find people and things to appreciate, and even something to do there.
So, to 'enjoy' heaven, you need above all, to believe that there is life after death, and secondly, to become the sort of person that will enjoy the experience. If you deny this entirely you will not be in hell, it will be more like oblivion - the idea of death as the end of everything is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you have a niggling doubt, you may discover that there is life but not have the capacity to enjoy it to the full - there may be regret but still some degree of happiness. If you live your life on earth knowing that this life is just a step to that eternal life to come, and try to live in a way that does not harm, but enhances the lives of others, and cultivate virtues, then I am sure you will find heavenly joy when you die, regardless of whatever Faith you had on earth.

These instances make the headlines because they are so deeply damaging. It would take an infinity of nuns doing good deeds to outweigh the guilt and misery that their school teachings have instilled in so many, never mind the acts of outright abuse.

Kindness - that is all.

Yes, should have written the whole thing ?

He also said I think, to give to Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and to give to God that which is God's.

No, no, I can't let that one go Trisher. When directly questioned about paying taxes Jesus replied "Render to Ceasar those things that are due to Ceasar and paid his taxes. (Albeit miraculously)

I agree too, Elegran.
I thought the Romans didn't like him because he encouraged his followers to refuse to pay their taxes to them.
To me Jesus was a rebellious Jew with ideas similar to the modern Jewish Reform movement.
illtellhim I like your post of yesterday @2.31 pm.

Agree Elegran, there were many reasons.

Annie, that is the pity of it. There is so very much good work done by people who have been inspired to live a life of good works because of faith, but when people fail and where religion is misinterpreted and misapplied, these incidences make the headlines.

Somehow a chunk got lost and changed the meaning completely- "He was descended from the beloved King David unlike the upstart King Herod, who had been placed into power by the Roman occupiers because they could control him, and he made Herod feel unsafe."

Also, the reasons that Jesus was put to death were more complicated than just one.

He preached a new covenant bypassing the religious leaders who had a monopoly on ritual and doctrine and made a good living selling animals for Temple sacrifices.

He was descended from the upstart King Herod, who had been placed into power by the Roman occupiers because they could control him, and he made Herod feel unsafe.

He preached a kingdom of the heart and soul, obeying God's laws, not man's, which made him unpopular with political leaders.

He said that wealth was not important and should be spent on helping the needy - that wouldn't go down well with rich men.

To the Romans, he was another example of the Jewish rebels who lurked in the desert, preaching freedom and planning insurrection.

And probably most compelling of all - it had been prophesied for centuries that a Messiah from the family of David would come when Israel was at her lowest ebb, and deliver her, but he wouild be rejected. If he had NOT been put to death it would have been a miracle.

Such a pity the good work by so many .Nuns is never discussed

Sorry, iltellhim, and this is not relevant to your argument at all, but they were not money-lenders in the temple, but money-changers. As I understand it, they changed ordinary money into the particular kind which was acceptable as an offering in the temple.

Imperfect27, you have my respect, maybe a lot more of us have life story's to tell. I was that upset after reading about that poor girl that I told Alexa to play act 1 of La boheme by Puccini because he as a very dodgy past where children are concerned, and I cried because I cannot understand how a man can write such beautiful music and abuse children in the same life time. God moves in mysterious ways.

I have heard so many 'cruel nuns stories' along life's way. So so sad.

Early in my teaching career I worked in an RC School. Although RE was my specialism (30 years active church experience, 9 years married to a vicar, wrote diocesan training programmes, 1st class honours degree in theology ...) I wasn't allowed to teach RE or contribute to assemblies.

One day I had to sit through an assembly about the 'immaculate conception.' I will never forget the innocent, puzzled faces focussing on the teacher who told them 'Mary was not like us, she was pure - we all have a stain in us. we are all marked by sin...''

Promptly took my children back to class and told them only some people believe this, others believe we full of love and carry God's love inside us! Grrrrr Sometimes religion does so much harm!!!

I was abused by nuns for a decade' at Smyllum Park, Headline from today's BBC news.

We should combine Faith with other things.

Day6, the church is very good at guilt .

I like Bonhoffoer's theology - he saw Christ as 'alive' in the community because He is alive in us: God in Christ, Christ in us, ourselves in community.

I think faith, does seek expression and does make a difference, but this can happen quietly and without fanfare by simply 'being' and 'doing'.

*In the same way, faith by itself, if it is
not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2.14-17)*

I think many who profess to having a faith do no more than wear it like a badge. It shows itself in church attendance and no more. Many of those I shared pews with were of the "not in my back garden" sort of mentality. Say prayers and go home.

I am probably being unfair. Busy lives mean being actively caring is hard but so many Christians I knew seemed judgemental and rather scathing of all sorts of world (and local) problems.

If as James said, faith is about action and making a difference, what proportion of any congregation is active?

I now question just how much I do to make a difference in the world. I am not sure that regular donations to charities or buying a sandwich for a homeless person means much.

The guilt tripping part of faith still weighs heavy with me.

Christianity is a religion of the “word made flesh.” It tells us that in
Christ, God “moved into the neighbourhood” (John 1.14, The Message
translation) and shared the experience of our daily lives.
For Christians, therefore, ‘spirituality’ is expressed in the very
practical, material ways we treat one another. It is expressed in both our
personal and our economic relationships. As the Letter of James puts it:
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have
faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother
or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them,
“Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their
physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is
not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2.14-17)
Our conviction that faith is deeply practical – that it has
implications for every aspect of our material lives – is one which we
share with Muslims and with Jews. All of our Scriptures offer their
readers quite specific teaching as to how they should embody God’s
faithfulness and generosity in their daily interactions and financial
exchanges.
It is this conviction which leads us to be concerned about the state
of our financial system, and in particular the exploitative practices
of payday lenders. And yet this teaching addresses issues of concern
to every citizen. You don’t need to be religious to be worried by the
yawning gap between rich and poor and the predatory tactics being used
by payday lenders to target and trap those in greatest need. You don’t
have to go to a church or mosque to worry about the way our economic
systems are reshaping the patterns of our common life; generating a rise
in wealth without a corresponding rise in well-being.

My Jesus was tortured and murdered because He was nasty to the money lenders in his Fathers house. Simply.

I think any intelligent, sensitive, reflective person who professes a faith struggles - alongside those who don't - to make sense of belief in God.

I have formally studied theology, been involved in ministry and pondered over matters of faith and belief in God for decades.

I was a churched child - sent to Sunday school to give mum and dad a lie-in most weeks, went to Church youth-group which was really good - but you could only go if you attended church at least once a month - (great bribe!), became a practising Christian through 'belief' when I was 17, met and subsequently married a man who then went on to train as a C of E vicar. We were in ministry for 9 years.

Over the decades I have always questioned dogma and sought to be able to articulate a coherent theology. And I have always thought of myself as more spiritual than religious, but being a vicar's wife - or even an ex one, others are quick to judge.

I have an older brother who is fervently evangelistic and who was keen to tell me that we were not 'proper' Christians when I first met and married my husband and he began his theological studies.

My brother upset all the family over the years - frequently telling my mother, who was the kindest, most giving person I have ever known, that because she didn't believe in his brand of salvation she was going to hell. I have no doubt that in his eyes, most of my family are 'damned'. When my DD2 died in an accident he told me that it was God's judgement on my husband as he had come out as a gay man. Yes, words fail ...

My brother's ardent, fear-driven, misogynistic pursuit of being 'righteous' and his dogmatic understanding of salvation have contributed to me being in a place where I have no time for people who are insistent about beliefs that spread discord and misery 'because the bible says so' or 'because I just know.'

I do have a faith. I see God in all things. I don't presume to impose those views on others and I would not want to worship a God that promoted bigotry or exclusivity. I think hell is where love isn't - and 'sin' is where we fall short, by purpose or neglect and therefore damage what is in our keeping.

I learned, partly through experience and partly through my studies, that religious practice is a powerful social construct, frequently used as a means of social control / manipulation; that what some hold as precious doctrine was warred over and not very nice people won those wars; that similarly people fought over what to include in the bible and what to leave out, and I learned to look at the social context of when things were written to gain new meanings from them. I still view the bible as a 'sacred' text that contains some great truths and guidance and can be inspirational. But if you want to take it verbatim, you have to take all the unpleasant bits and the many contradictions too.

Personally, I find 'negative' theology the most helpful. When we accept that we simply cannot know what God is, only what he/she /it is not, then we may glean a bit of humility and glimpses of insight.

For a brief intro see:
www.thoughtco.com/negative-theology-250967

Nor would I presume that Christianity OR any other religion is the only way to God.

I do find it exhausting to see the same old arguments, the fervent protestations of faith based on accepted, but very questionable dogma, but also the assumption that people who believe must be stupid, unthinking, people going round and round and round.

If some apparently 'Christian' people stopped being so fixated on salvation and put their energies into living a good life, without one eye on an eternal reward, the world might be a better place. Sometimes, we only have ourselves to blame if people of no faith look at us critically.

I was baptised, and my parents read the Bible regularly and lived as Christians should. I had my children baptised.

I have however fallen out of love with organised religion.

I firmly believe there is more, I don't believe in a vengeful God and if I am to cherry-pick Christianity, I'll stick to the 'love your neighbour' bit and try to lead a good life, care for others, have a conscience and do my best. Oh I sin all over the bloomin' place too. I know that!

I like to think my good bits outweigh my bad, so thoughts of Heaven and Hell don't concern me. I revel in our beautiful world, talk to trees, glory in the beauty of a blue sky stretching as far as the eye can see, and remain amazed by our planet and the fact that we live and enjoy so much. In that I try to appreciate how lucky I am and that others don't have such a lucky life experience.

I count my blessings, send up prayers all over the place and believe that if there is an all-knowing, all-seeing God, he sees me at the kitchen sink as well as in a pew.

I found the church experience restrictive. I think I rebelled and now do my own thing, based on (mainly) Christian principles, but I appreciate they are humanitarian ones. Yo don't need a religious label to care.

I hope there is more. I believe in the spirit. I know I am a spirit having a human experience. (Long story)

Live for the day, do good, think...and take your chances that hell fires were the creation of our less enlightened ancestors endeavouring to keep the masses in order with the threat of punishment.

We live, we die. Who knows what comes next?

grandtante: Surely "at the actual moment of our death, we are asked, by God whether we believe in Him?" we would say yes because we have just seen that there is a God - who could say no in those cirumstances? which means, everyone would go to heaven..

Are we really all His children.

I was walking through high town the other day, feeling awful - OH very unwell, I had lots of pain to walk, got a bit of a virus and was just dragging myself around by sheer grit.

Two American lads came bouncing up to me like untrained puppies and asked me if I had found Jesus. I will spare you my reply!

If you read the whole story, illtellhim, it was because of what everyone else did that he died, taking the blame so that if they believed in his divinity and followed his teachings they would not have to face the even more horrific punishments of everlasting hell.

Whether you believe and follow is another question entirely, as is whether he was divine or just a good man with a set of precepts for a good life, and what you believe about hell.. But your post misunderstands the basic message of Christianity.

"My Jesus died in the most horrific way" such was the extent of His love for His Father and His love for me.