The Pope

BlueBelle, I do agree that it’s horrible to see abuse perpetrated by people who are teaching goodness and doing badness. Although it happens everywhere, the people doing it are more hypocritical when they are also teaching others about leading good lives.

However, I’m not sure it is fair to say that all religions are businesses. No one becomes a priest or minister to get rich – they lose financially by it. Very few people become Christians to make money. The ones I know generally give away 10% of their income. Without giving the C of E would not keep going.

It’s true you don’t need a priest to forgive you for doing wrong things. I’m not a Catholic but I believe the teaching is that God forgives you when you confess to a priest.

According to the Bible, you do need God to forgive you for doing wrong things. God hates people hurting themselves and each other and he judges that. (If he didn’t care, he would not be loving. He cares when people he cares about are hurt.) But he has provided a way for everyone who wants forgiveness to have it, through trusting in Jesus. Everyone needs that way, because we have all done wrong things.

Some more than others.

But surely Annie confession and vows of obedience etc are part of your particular church and way of worshipping, not of Christianity?

Our DC all went to the local primary school which just happened to be Catholic and it all seems so complicated! All those saints days, stations of the cross, etc. My Catholic friends seem to like all the rules though. I was brought up in the Baptist church and my grandparents were Quakers. It all seemed so much simpler!

One thing I do not understand though is that Catholics are happy to drink alcohol whilst the ‘low’ churches believe in abstention.

I agree Skye , but we need to remember more abuse is carried out in the home than anywhere else and by the people who above all others should protect the child, the parents and extended family. All abuse is wrong , I understand the anger against the priests but abuse by a father or grandfather ? What causes them to do this? Too simplistic to dismiss it as evil.

I went to a convent grammar school with about 10 nuns and 50 ish lay teachers. Some nuns were nice, some a bit tart but the same goes for the lay staff too. And as a family the priest never came knocking for money. After moving to another area, I did hear that the local priest had a ‘close relationship’ with a female parishioner. Glad to be free of the mind control and relieved that the children went to non-church schools.

It’s good that you know what God thinks and wants Skye!

Yes I do believe formal churches are like businesses look at the buildings from all religions... palaces of gold The Vatican is a huge business with its own country, stamps, soldiers, passports millions of pounds worth of jewellery and you can replicate that with other religions of the world
no one becomes a priest or minister to get rich I was talking about religions as a whole more than individuals but as you bring it up our local priests lives in a beautiful house with his nice car in the driveway and his housekeeper, no reason why he shouldn’t, but I wonder what a vow of poverty actually means.

RC priests do not take the vow of poverty Bluebell

Oops, sorry, and Christ has told us want God wants of us

Is it right that RC priests don’t get any money apart from what the parishioners give them? I assume the accommodation is free.

A RC diocesan priest is paid by his parish so can accept donations . They live in church accommodation as do Anglican priests

I must admit to a conflict of interest here, as I was brought up Catholic in UK, but left when the then teachings conflicted with my views about contraception.

This Pope is one of the best ever in my view. He's dealing with previously ignored and difficult issues, such as LGBT, cruelty, divorce, is starting a conversation about married priests and so on. He also has a Curia to deal with who are politically quite right wing and resistant to change.

As far as the dreadful abuse goes, it might be an idea for him to put the guilty clerics of all levels into a Vatican institution for the rest of their lives after serving any prison sentence,. They should be made then to understand their vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, the precepts by which St Francis lived, and in straitened living. By that I mean no luxuries, no internet, no contact with the outside world. That way the Church would pay for their keep. And they might find them something useful to do, like farm work to grow food for the poor.

The TV show Call the Midwife showed the work these dedicated women did for their communities, giving up all for others. There were teaching orders too, and they often improved the chances of girls and minorities being properly educated and cared for. There is more to value than condemn, I think.

My ex husband was put in the care of noms in a town in the west country. His mother was unmarried and worked all the hrs she could to give the nuns money for his keep. She also sent him clothes and visited when she she. The visits were always planned and her son was presented to her well dressed and well cared for, however, she made an unexpected visit and it was a different story. She took him way straight away, I think there was an investigation and it was in the papers. She never attended church again. Also my dad was taught and cared for by nuns for a short period and said it was the worst time of his life and how cruel they.

My friend, not catholic, went to a catholic school at 11 and hated it because the nuns said she woukd burn in hell. She was terrified.

I do believe in being honest and thoughtful for others.

Indeed bijou

Not my view, BlueBelle, that’s all from the Bible.

The Vatican isn’t a religion, though. Not saying it doesn’t own a lot of valuables, but it’s just one part of Catholicism, not the whole of Christianity. Can’t speak for other religions.

Your local Catholic priest lives in a nice house with a car and housekeeper, but according to this article he earnt less than £10,000 a year in 2011, probably not a lot more now.
www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2011/February-2011/Pay-Check

I think the C of E ministers earn around £20K, plus house. But when they retire they lose the house.

I’m shocked by the posts about priests calling at people’s houses for their ‘dues’. I would call myself a lapsed catholic but grew up as a catholic before and during the troubles in Belfast and I never in my life saw or heard of priests either ‘doing the rounds’ of houses or collecting money. The only time the priest ever visited anyone’s house was by invitation either to help or for a meal.
I was also educated by nuns in two different high schools and can’t say a bad word about them. Yes, there were ones I didn’t particularly like and some very strict but we got a great education and they genuinely cared for our welfare in the terrible situation we lived in.
You can’t tar all nuns and priests with the same brush. There are bad apples everywhere in every walk of life, in every religion, in every town and country.

JacquiG, I think that’s a great idea!

I didn’t really mean to point out anything about Catholics I very clearly said right from the beginning that I feel all formal religions follow the same pattern
I also didn’t suggest that the Vatican was a religion Skye but it does belongs to the richest Western religion and brings in billions of euros, it is very big business

So disgraceful how these people were treated I am so angry I doubt that the pope will do anything to help with the situation, he has seen some of the young men who were abused and asked for their forgiveness but don’t think it goes far enough.

By accident we picked up an Irish radio station this afternoon and heard the end of the Mass with the Pope. Then abuse victims who had met the Pope to talk about their experiences were interviewed. One woman, through an interpreter, had told the Pope of her experiences in the industrial schools and the laundries. Incredibly he knew nothing about these, had no idea what she was talking about, it all had to be explained to him. I would have thought this was something that he would have been told about in the preparations for his visit as the laundry scandals were/are a huge part of the abuse meted out in Ireland.

I live in N.I. In the 60s my mums best friend had a heart condition and was not allowed to use contraception. She was reported to the local priest for using it. She died very young after having five children. The church did exercise a lot of control and make people fearful. Friends of mine left the church because of this.
I don't know how much this has changed. I do have good RC friends who are really nice committed people who do a lot of good in their communities. The thing I find hard to accept is that the abuse reports were denied/ ignored by the church. Regarding abuse of pregnant girls the parents would have been greatly influenced by the churchs attitude. However not everyone will agree with what I have said. In N.I. everyone has their own perspective.

How on earth could anyone report the best friend to her priest for using contraception?

Both RC and Protestant girls were sent from their homes when pregnant, same in England and Wales

I find it hard not to believe in a higher power. It seems more credible than a big bang theory. I know there is love and beauty. But also pain and cruelty and death. I can't make sense of it.

Annep You are right about perspective in NI !!
BTW I have 6 children , luckily I was strong as a horse and thick skinned or it could have been 12