As an agnostic

- “if god is all-powerful he cannot be good, if god is good he cannot be all-powerful!”-

This conundrum has been debated since the dawn of time. All possible answers demand a shift in logic. They demand faith - indefinable and incomprehensible even to those who have it.

It seems to me that Jesus was saying loud and clear: do something practical for the poor. Hiding away in a convent is a huge cop-out and the antithesis of the message.

icanhandthemback sorry not sure what you mean. If you mean God strickens people with illnesses I disagree.

It is not their house to share , no one is allowed in there, with the exception of an electrician etc , this is what an enclosed order is.

Luckygirl, I doubt that they were prime plots in the days when Churches were built. The wealth in the Church of England appears to be quite complex set up as there are funds for repairs etc coming from different organisations.
Anniebach, I am finding the "people making choices" argument at the moment. My cousin did not choose to have Schizophrenia, my sister did not choose to have cystic fibrosis or the cancer that killed her, my brother made choices about how to counter the problem which he didn't ask for which was anxiety and my 3 year old innocent grandchild didn't choose to have autism. Maybe all those things were sent to test the family around them but I am finding it difficult to understand how a compassionate God could act this way. And it's not just us, look at those all killed in a Tsunami.

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I am quite happy for the to pray - I just wish they would follow the dictates of their founder about caring for others and not take up a prime plot, and a beautiful building when a few miles away people are sleeping on the streets. Sadly, so far their prayers have failed to prevent that - but sharing their accommodation might just do the trick!

Luckygirl those nuns don’t own that property , they have no say in what happens to it. I would think when the convent was built I am sure there were many more nuns living there.

You won’t like this sorry, they do a lot, not what you think they should do probably what you think they shouldn’t do , they pray ,I think there are are four Poor Clares monestries in England now, there use to be many more.

They are not an offshoot of " Sisters of Nazareth " are they ?

My children were always told that nothing else matters but kindness. End of - not related to religion, absence of religion, anything at all really. Can't go far wrong with that.

Don't get me going on nuns! - there is a nunnery a few doors away. It is a plush, architect designed huge building with vast grounds (acres and acres) with wonderful views. Inside are a handful of nuns - 8 to be precise.

They are an enclosed order - they do nothing - nothing at all - in or for the community.

They point bank refused to sell a tiny strip of land to the next door primary school where the outside parking causes children's lives to be in danger every day - they have to park the other side of an A-road and get themselves over this very difficult junction with their pushchairs and toddlers in tow. Just no - total refusal to help.

They are called the Poor Clares by the way. What can I say?

This has been a really interesting discussion - so pleased to see it hasn't been acrimonious, bearing in mind the wide range of religious views on here. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - a good motto whether you are religious or not.

exactly mumofmadboys , such a hard life, I couldn’t do it, they have been called , I am thankful I didn’t have that calling . God knew I couldn’t be silent for a day so certaintly not for life ?

They pray for the world.

Perhaps Annie for nuns and monks in silent orders their work is prayer.

What you can do for others depends not just on your faith or values but also on your circumstances. I am an atheist and yes I have freely taken in others in hardship, lonely or homeless. It wasn't a big deal.

I think it was a big deal though, absent. It was kind and generous and there are not that many people, with faith or without, who would feel able to do that.
However, there are many who will give of their time and of themselves to help others in need, thank goodness.

You do not have to have a religious faith to be kind, good and to think of others.
Conversely, having a religious faith does not always mean that a person is kind, good and thinks of others.

Newgran so nuns and monks in silent orders are not following the teachings of Christ?

In my understanding we are saved by our faith in what Jesus did for us, but that faith alone is pretty pointless if it doesn't lead us to do what we can to help others and make the world better. St James put it like this:

Do you think you’ll get anywhere in this if you learn all the right words but never do anything? Does merely talking about faith indicate that a person really has it? For instance, you come upon an old friend dressed in rags and half-starved and say, “Good morning, friend! Be clothed in Christ! Be filled with the Holy Spirit!” and walk off without providing so much as a coat or a cup of soup—where does that get you? Isn’t it obvious that God-talk without God-acts is outrageous nonsense?

I can already hear one of you agreeing by saying, “Sounds good. You take care of the faith department, I’ll handle the works department.”

Not so fast. You can no more show me your works apart from your faith than I can show you my faith apart from my works. Faith and works, works and faith, fit together hand in glove.

A peaceful and pleasant New Year to you all.

So true mumofmadboys

The C of E's investments are decreasing rapidly with falling church numbers. They have a huge financial commitment to fund present clergy, retired clergy pensions and the up keep of vicarages and churches.
Our vicarages have been old and modern. We have had groups meeting there for meetings/ study and my DH has also seen lots of people re funerals/ baptisms/ problems in his study or our lounge. When you live in a vicarage your home is not your own. I have never minded( well nearly never!). It is just part of the 'job'

How many homeless could be housed if The National Gallery sold off all that art , the whole country would be giving to those in need

And Christ attended and preached in synagogues

Evil exists in some homes around the country too

Wonder how many the Albert Hall could give shelter to

Churches do have an atmosphere, especially the one by us which is a Knights Templar church, so is very old indeed, and has pagan runes carved outside. Mind you, the activities of the Templars do not bear close scrutiny! Monotheism at its worst!

I appreciate ga's thread because it chimes with my concept of Christianity as it should be (tried to be) lived - but what do I know? The trappings and the vestments and the buildings seem irrelevant to me - that was what the founder taught - pretty unequivocal on that score.

I do appreciate that it is comforting to many to get together in inspiring places - as indeed it is for me in other contexts (e.g. symphony halls). But I just wonder if that idea is what it is meant to be about. From my readings it looks to me as if all these trappings are just what it is meant NOT to be about.

The CofE has massive investments - should it have I wonder? Or should it get rid of some of this to fund a really impactful charitable project?

I am not impressed by the trappings - a lot of evil can be hidden beneath these as we all know.

I still stand by my view that we need churches, bible study, prayer groups held in homes, but homes can’t hold large numbers of people and I like the fellowship in a church service and passing the peace. I choose to go to confession, not weekly, I have never thought it was for the priest to forgive me. I find comfort sitting in church , those who have gone before me had their sorrows and joys too, wealthy and poor, all loved by God.

I have read only the first page of this thread. I think some unreasonable questions have been asked of those who do have faith. What you can do for others depends not just on your faith or values but also on your circumstances. I am an atheist and yes I have freely taken in others in hardship, lonely or homeless. It wasn't a big deal.

Cindersdad thank you for your thought-provoking post and the honesty with which it was written. I sort of agree with your penultimate sentence, except I would say that how we treat our fellow man, living creatures and the planet is in some way, for Christians, evidence of our faith. Someone once challenged me thus: 'If you were accused of being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you, if hearsay was excluded?' At the time I was a fairly new Christian and the honest answer would have been a resounding 'No'.

At the risk of being accused of 'virtue signalling' I have tried since then to follow the commands of Jesus in practical ways as well as in nurturing an 'inward grace'. I meet with my fellow believers in a 'house church' and we have no paid clergy, but we all have a voluntary sphere of community interest. And yes, I have taken homeless people into my house to live, also people of other faiths (and none), people with mental ill health and disability. And no, I do not not believe that Christians have a monopoly on kindness or selfless deeds.

I do believe that Christ requires a different standard for those of us who are called by His name; that we love Him and in consequence we treat others as we would like to be treated - at all times and in all circumstances. I do believe that He requires His people to agitate for social justice; on behalf of the poor, the needy, the marginalised, the refugee and the asylum seeker.

And I fail to live up to Jesus' example all the time, but I try and I keep on trying. I sometimes doubt, but I keep on believing. I love imperfectly, but I truly believe that Jesus' love is for all people and He can deal with our imperfections.