Does God exist? I'd like to be clear in my mind

SirChenjin - you didn't choose to believe and I don't choose not to believe

I don't understand this: surely all belief or not is a choice. Are you saying that we don't have free will?

someone who doesn’t want to believe - there is no such person.

Those who do not believe in a god do not do so because they do not want to - they do so because they have no reason to.

If you go into an empty room and someone says to you "There is a table here." You will not dispute that fact because you are filled with a burning desire not to see tables; but simply because there is nothing there to see.

Twice it's not a case of not wanting to believe, you make it sound like it's a choice. As an atheist I don't believe in gods any more than I believe in fairies or lepruchans, but as a person of faith you obviously know that Christ and your god exists - you didn't choose to believe and I don't choose not to believe. For me and other atheists it's exactly as Malcolm Muggeridge says.

Malcolm Muggeridge years ago once said when challenged on his faith “ I don’t believe, I know” That sums up faith for me. I will never convince someone who doesn’t want to believe but I have had a personal relationship with Christ and I know he will be there when I die. That for me is hugely comforting

pinkquartz , it's a very uncertain way to start out, isn't it? On the one hand, I'm glad I started out with a blank slate, so to speak, as it caused me to question and look into things instead of simply adopting a religion I was born into. On the other hand, I did envy the comfort others enjoyed and still do to a certain extent. I'm happy that my "middle ground" has a lot to recommend it, however. It sounds like you are, too.

The existence or not of God is a belief not a fact, so the question 'Does God exist' is unanswerable (is that a word?). I don't have faith in a God, but I do have faith in the basic decency of humans beings.

No, faith isn't "pure idol worship", but if you don't have faith you wont understand that.

Tweedle24

Maybe people think that those of us who believe in God are mistaken but, our beliefs are no less valid than those of atheists.

Yes they are.

You believe by faith alone without logic or reason while atheists use logic and reason to get to their conclusions.

That is why your own ideology is based on just a hope that your faith is not jus a fantasy.

Atheists, IOW, have proofs and evidence for their thinking while you have nothing.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL

paddyann I was going to answer your question as best I could but Alexa has made a good answer.

I don’t know why the world is not perfect. I don’t know why there is disease and natural disasters. I do know that there is real evil enacted by people. They are the ones that misuse their free will. I also know that a lot of good is performed by people.

What I do know is that the existence of God cannot be scientifically proven one way or the other, although some prominent scientists, including Einstein, are and were Christians.

Maybe people think that those of us who believe in God are mistaken but, our beliefs are no less valid than those of atheists.

The original poster must be more confused than ever after reading all these posts.

gmarie

I do like your post.
I was brought up by parents who came from different religions and who had agreed that us the children would be brought up without religion.
This is freedom but also left me searching for answers and reading.
I read many of the books you mention.

I have been happy for a long time now to know that I believe we are more than the material and I do not need to belong to a religion.
I live my life as best I can......and like you am open but not too much!

I cannot bear when religion is an excuse for war or persecution. My parents situation has made me super aware of this danger.

Gnostic, the immanent god present in this world is man's quest for goodness and truth. We have the benefit of wise men and seers such as Jesus, Socrates, Buddha, and Confucius to help us to identify goodness and truth.

Fennel Tue 08-Oct-19 16:17:04

"No need to apologise, Tweedle. There aren't many concrete answers in this topic.
I've been told that some writings exist somewhere from Jesus' time reporting on his preaching etc."

Are you referring to the Nag Hamadi Gnostic Christian gospels?

They show more of Jesus' sayings than the rest of the bible.

Regards
DL

Anniebach Tue 08-Oct-19 12:35:39

"I will bring this up yet again."

You are living in the past and by incidents of individual situations instead of stats.

I guess it is pointless to tell you that, per capita, we are at the best level for evil that we have ever enjoyed.

That is useless information to the losers why have to live with something evil, but they do show well for the many more winners.

You might want to check a few stats. Some, and the best source is given near the end of this link.

It is long but worth the listen if you have the time.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0

Regards
DL

Alexa Tue 08-Oct-19 13:00:19

"I agree Anniebach. The immanent God present in this world is the one we can serve to try to make sure these man made evils don't happen."

I'm not sure of your definition for god, perhaps you can expand on your definition, but Jesus said he came to serve and not be served.
If a Christian one should look to be served by god, not to serve god. Gods have nothing in the way of wants or needs that humans can serve.

Regards
DL

Alexa

"One way of thinking is all evil is natural evil."

We think alike and you might understand the following.

Christians tend to not opine on it due to lack of intelligence and not being able to do decent apologetics against it.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/pope-would-you-accept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

Lazigirl

"Gnostic I wonder what you mean by the word "evil"? Do you think children can be inherently evil?"

They, like you and I are, yes.

What we call evil is built into our DNA and our selfish gene.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

As to children and others who might do something that we think is evil, I go by the term in law that our legal system is built on.

Please look up the term, mens rea. That is Latin for an evil mind or intent which a court must find it they are to form a guilty verdict.

That is the out for children before the age of reason and the insane.

"I do believe in treating people with kindness whenever possible, and think that if one is treated badly to return the treatment does nothing to resolve the situation, merely exacerbates it and can cause bitterness all round."

That may work in some instances and is a decent thought, but that rewards evil and I do not think that we should do that. If we did, what incentive would the evil have for reverting to good and what would be the motivation to the good to remain good if there is no benefit?

If you were to get home and see a rapist on your daughter, for you to reward that evil with good, you would have to offer what he thinks good and that is you being his next victim.

In engineering, we take things to extremes to prove concepts. Apologies for having to use such a vile example to show the inadequacy of your view.

"I think humans have evolved to learn to be altruistic in order to live in social groups."

Absolutely, to a point where evolutionists have a hard time explaining why we are so damn good to each other.

We may have taken our loving ways too far and that is why we have allowed immoral religions to be the mainstream.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

Regards
DL

Fennel

"Jews do believe that Jesus existed - he seems to have been a Jewish Rabbi. But wasn't the Messiah.
I find the concept of the Messiah difficult to accept."

As I do, given that the Jewish people never anointed Jesus as king, which is what would have given Jesus the title of the Christ.

Ignore that fundamentalists call Jesus, Jesus the Christ.

There are many hidden in plain sight lies in the bible.

Regards
DL

Tweedle24

"Gnostic The verses you quote talk about Jews not believing in Jesus, not denying that God exists."

You are thinking that Jews are literalists, I think.
You would be wrong.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.
bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
Further.
www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."
Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D
Regards
DL

Alexa

"The religions are all human inventions. Let's be fair: for all the religions' horrible histories they have been the carriers of the important message of how people can live in civilised ways."

Really?

With homophobia and misogyny and believing that a satanic genocidal and infanticidal god is somehow good.

I hope you were kidding as I cannot see your morals being that low, you being reduced to a second class citizen by religions and all.

Please revue what you think of the benefits of such an immoral ideology.

Regards
DL

Also - Something or someone may have 'designed us' - but they have no power to control us or the world. Good and Evil are Manmade. I certainly wouldn't pray to someone or something that was supposedly powerful, but allows so much Evil to flourish. We, humans, allow Evil to flourish and we should stop it. We should promote and encourage the sheer goodness and light that many people possess. I believe in the power of prayer only in that I believe it concentrates our own thoughts and abilities.

I'm intrigued too by the idea that something or one may have designed us and everything else on earth.

I am spiritual. I believe there is something there - but what it is - I have no idea? A collection of consciousness seems most likely to me - energy or spirit.

Just lately I have become interested in 'Intelligent Design' - but it hasn't made me think more towards there being a God, as to us being genetically designed by someone - or something? Aliens!

geekesse,if God is all powerful to prevent bad things happening but doesn't do so, then He is not good.

If you worship God because He is good, then He cannot also be all-powerful.

I believe that tragedies, accidents and illness are purely chance happenings, along with miracles, good fortune and such.
I neither blame God or put it down to his or her presence, as I don't believe in God, although I wish I could find some faith from somewhere.

You’re generalising a bit there about those of us who don’t believe. I don’t believe because gods and other mythical beings don’t exist - not because they allow x or y to happen or not happen.