I wish that I had a Faith

I think that science and God can get along side by side quite well. The intricacies of the way the world is made even when you get down to quantum level speak of an intelligence which tells me that the world didn’t happen randomly. I actually think it takes much more faith to believe life happened randomly than to believe in an intelligent creator God.

I have always believed in God, Jesus being the son of God and the Trinity and tried to live my life in a good way. However, I have never felt more like a disbeliever and sinner than when I attended an Evangelical Christian church where some members made me feel that because I couldn't pray in tongue, hadn't received the full immersion baptism and didn't give 10 per cent of my (very little) income directly to the church each month then I couldn't really be a Christian and some of whom even wanted to pray for my soul. I was even labelled as a non practicing Christian. There were more people attending this church, who professed to be Christians, and were and had been very evil (Paedophiles, Adulterers, ex jail birds etc), however, because they had 'seen the light' they felt themselves above the likes of me who, I might add, felt guilty about smoking behind the bike shed when I was 15. All I can say is the pearly gates await!

That is terrible Newatthis, I am sorry you were abused in this way.
The Bible calls on us to love one another not berate one another.

Thank you Alegrias apology accepted. I think our minds run away with us sometimes, when trying to type responses. I know mine does. That’s why I would never get into a debate on line. I’m not very good at writing things down, much better face to face. That’s probably because, as Christians, we’re more used to it this way.
I will just say this though. You mention about the virus ‘ evolving’, but this isn’t evolution. It’s still a virus. Evolution is one species evolving into another.
I respect your views though and wish you well. Have a good evening.

Alegrias1

Well HolySox, DD1975 said that scientists seem to think that we just magically appeared from nothing with no explanation, hence disregarding the centuries of scientific advances and knowledge that explain how the universe became as it is. I think that is disrespectful.

As a scientist yourself, I would have thought that you would know that the use of the term "Theory" in Science isn't the same as its use in everyday language. A scientific theory is an "explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results." (thank you Google) Not just something somebody thought up on the back of an envelope. I'm not sure if you believe that evolution is unproven, its not clear from what you write, but if you don't believe in it, how do you explain that the virus is, as we speak, evolving into different variants that are more "fit" for their environment?

What a pity you think "science" ( your quotation marks, not mine ) is a distraction. Never mind, its doing a grand job of keeping us all alive.

As a Christian it is important to respect that God created Adam, as through Adam's sin humankind became separated from God. Jesus death on the cross pays for that sin such that there is a way back to God.
'Evolutionists' deny we are all descended from Adam, so I cannot accept that. We don't know how God created all things, and there may be elements that could fit the evolution theory. For instance, the latest mobile phones have similar construction to the previous mobiles so we say the design is evolving. But usually you can't fit spare parts of an old design to the new ... so is this evolution?
Regarding coronavirus when it mutates it is still a coronavirus isn't it? Is this more adaption rather than evolution that claims man is descended from apes. I am not aware of any experimental study that has shown one form of life has evolved into a completely new type of lifeform. I have read of some claims but they were not substantiated.
By distraction I meant you threw in a curved ball raising the topic of science. Many Christians, as do I, embrace science. We look to explore God's creation and use what we learn for the benefit of others, such as developing medicines. As for keeping us all alive ... well, not indefinitely. However, Jesus offers etrernal life. I would recommend you give Him another think. You're never too old to recieve Him.
Goodnight and God bless.

I've experienced that too Newatthis being classed as a second class Christian. My experience was at a house church.

It's BS of course but upsetting to experience all the same.

"Evolution is one species evolving into another."

Thank you for taking the time to respond DD1975. Although people have different views it's still possible to have a grown up conversation, I think.

But your comment about evolutionist is so wrong, sorry! I don't want to change the course of Fanny's thread so I started a new one, but I do want to answer this. Evolution is the process of tiny changes building up over time. In the short term they confer small advantages on the organism. That's what's happening with the virus. Eventually, the changes are so numerous that the resulting organism is so different from the original that we decide it's a different species. But the old organism can still exist of course!

Evolution not evolutionist! Fat fingers...

I don’t really feel the need of it, but I do envy people who firmly believe that they’re going to be reunited with loved ones when they die. Must be such a comfort, and after all, if they’re just dead, it’s not as if they’re going to be disappointed.

Reading all of these posts has been really interesting.
I think so much organised religion really just falls into the category of social club.
We were chapel, one of my uncles was a lay preacher at another chapel, presumably with different beliefs, but we went there too. my gran also loved nothing more than a good sing along at the Salvation Army, so we frequently went there.
In my late teens something happened to me, and I was worried, and felt I needed some reassurance, I went to talk to the minister, he was indeed, kind and reassuring, but I remember my grandparents in particular being uncomfortable and embarrassed that I’d talk to him about a personal matter.
But I’ve definitely found food for thought in this conversation.

Compulsory element at school, put me off for life, now best left well alone!

I come from an atheist family - although my parents always watched Songs of Praise! I think it reminded them of their youth, when church-going was much more a way of life for most.

So I don't believe, but I do relish - yes relish - the fact that the UK allows people to worship in virtually any way they choose, without fear of a knock at the door. That said, I accept that Muslims may be having a harder time of it these days, for reasons we all know.

My late first wife, and her late mother (both her daughters pre-deceased her) had early-years Catholicism, but both rejected it quite early in life. MiL had gone to a boarding school in Dorset, run by Belgian nuns. Every so often a priest would visit - he would shove toffees up her knickers! As a Catholic family she was one of 11 children, and at least two of her brothers became priests. One of them became a curé here in France, and was imprisoned after the police found the biggest collection of child porn France had ever seen.....

Ashcombe's cousin is a nurse and an ordained CofE priest. How much joy did she get from baptising her own grandchild? I do not dispute faith can be rewarding!

Despite my certainty that there is no deity, I would never force that down anyone's throat, because I cannot point to a cast-iron piece of proof that I am right. When DW (Ashcombe) and I moved from being friends to lovers and then married, I made it very clear that her faith would never be an issue. Indeed, I have been content to attend Midnight Mass at Christmas. It helps enormously that her current vicar is a smashing bloke, with whom I would love to raise a pint or two. His attitude to his parishioners - home and hospital visits are a staple of his working week - is admirable, and represent what I would see as the positive benefits of CofE, and hopefully other faiths. Ashcombe plays piano for the 9.30 service, and is happy to read the lesson - unseen - at a moment's notice.

It helps that Ashcombe (she will blush) is a practising Christian - her actions follow her faith. So when the church had need of a new heating system, the treasurer couldn't believe the value of the cheque A passed to her. Needy friends have received donations. I find all this very attractive.

Sum-up? I don't believe, but am the first to see faith can help some people enormously, and through their faith they may help others. Hard to see a downside in all that!

Hello Alegrias. Appreciate you have started another thread, but thought I’d respond here for continuity. Also....*Fanny*, may still be reading, so I wouldn’t worry about changing the course, it’s all relevant.

You say about the tiny changes over time. You are right, this is the idea behind evolution. But it’s masses of time. Thousands/ millions of years.....and the species changes. That’s the whole point of the theory.This proposes that man has come from another organism somewhere a long time ago. That’s not happened with this virus. Short time, so we’ve been alive to see it....still a virus.

I believe in God the Creator. I have a history book which documents this. You may or may not believe these words, but as I said before, that then invalidates all history.

Evolutionists have no evidence. It’s conjecture.

When I was at Sixth form, I did a project on Evolution as part of my Biology A’ level. I wasn’t a Christian then, in fact that didn’t happen until I was 35. Everything I read didn’t make sense. When I handed it in...I asked my teacher, “ How do we know all this?” He said, “ we don’t....it’s just an idea”. He told me they have to teach it though....as part of the curriculum...even then!

The Bible tells us, that not everyone will be reached because they simply don’t believe.

I would still encourage you to read the gospel of John. Always a good place to start.

God bless

I think that, in general, we need to have an explanation for the fact that we are here, that galaxies, suns and planets exist in never-ending space, as the vastness of the universe is difficult to comprehend.

If we cannot comprehend this we need to rationalise it in some way and that is how gods and religions emerged, to fill in the gaps.

As increasingly more knowledge is discovered and gaps are filled, fewer people will believe in higher beings to explain why and how we are here.

Religion was also a way to control people and, generally, people are better educated and less compliable now.

I'm just musing and hope you can follow my not-very-bright thoughts.

Wrong thread!
hope you can follow my not-very-bright thoughts.

Hello! Yes, I am very much still reading!
Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking posts everyone. ?
Especially to HolySox for reigniting the thread and answering my opening post. ?

Callistemon what are you like!?

HolySox

Blondiescot

I don't have any faith either - nor have I ever felt the need for one. I was made to go along to Sunday School every week with my granny - it was my father's concession to her after adamantly refusing to have me christened (his view was that once I was old enough to understand, I could choose my own religion - or none). However, even as a young child, I quickly realised there was something far wrong - I was a very questioning child, and this was actively discouraged by those in charge. You had to "believe" - and that was it.
On the other hand, I respect those who have a faith, and I find religious buildings and traditions fascinating in their own way - but only as an outsider looking in!

Curious, Blondiescot, but what exactly were you to 'believe'?

Anything which didn't make sense to me - even as a child! For instance, I remember questioning how Jesus could die and then come back to life - even at such a young age (I was maybe around six or seven at the time), I knew that could not happen. But any time I asked such a question - and that's just one example - I was told not to ask and just to believe in the word of god. I also remember asking why, if god was so good, did he let things like wars happen and babies die - again, you weren't supposed to question because "it was gid's way".

Hi Fanny - What nobody ever tells you is it IS faith - ie A Choice. As a youngster, I was always looking for objective proof (can you prove to me how the internet works... ) But when found myself in a situation where I simply HAD to cope and could not. I found extra strength from prayer and faith. So, - Many people get through life without ever being in that dire a need - fine. If you do need belief for strength - it works. BUT steer clear of those who offer magic in return for material benefits or whose beliefs are clearly not going to benefit you or society. There is no handle on the outside of the door in Holman Hunt's picture The Light of the World - you have to open the door.

Now I'm having an evolution debate on two threads .

Your A-level teacher, I'm sorry to say it DD1975, wasn't very well informed. Like I said before, it's not an idea thought up one sunny afternoon and sketched on the back of an envelope, its an explanation of how life evolved. If he couldn't explain to you how it came about he shouldn't have been teaching biology.

There's lots of evidence for evolution. None of it invalidates anyone's desire to believe in a Creator God. But there are none so blind as those that will not see.

I’d just love to see one piece....of evidence. Perhaps you could send it privately.

FannyCornforth

Hello! Yes, I am very much still reading!
Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking posts everyone. ?
Especially to HolySox for reigniting the thread and answering my opening post. ?

You're welcome. You raised an important issue - I think we all need a faith.

My, much loved dear Father had a quiet deep faith, which led him to believe that when my Mother died, she was not gone forever and that he would soon be with her in heaven - both restored to youth and health, dancing and playing badminton together. He did follow her soon after and I would love to believe that his dream came true.

BUT - I do not believe in heaven or an after life. I do believe that my beloved lives on in memories, our daughters and DGC. I believe that it is my role to cope with my grief, to live on and keep that remembrance alive within the family and certainly not to rush to join him. My thoughts are coloured by the memory of my very religious, MIL's death - Heart attack and stroke at the graveside at her husband's funeral, with a whispered 'I.m coming' - leaving her DGDs and Son totally bereft and traumatised.

DiscoDancer1975

I’d just love to see one piece....of evidence. Perhaps you could send it privately.

If you're looking for a picture of a crocodile turning into an elephant you're going to be disappointed.

This is good, although I found it by accident. "Why evolution is a thing". 9 minutes in, new species of finch. And why a species that only lives about 100 years has difficulty with long evolutionary timescales.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3GagfbA2vo

Thanks for responding BlondieScot. Sorry to hear you were told not to ask! Jesus said 'Seek and ye shall find'. Perhaps it is time you start asking questions again.