Antisemitism

Zionism is something else.. and deplorable in the way it is being carried out.

I presume you mean the Israeli Government?

Not everyone in Israel is happy with what is happening now.

Allira

I presume you mean the Israeli Government?

Not everyone in Israel is happy with what is happening now.

I don't think everyone in the government is a Zionist, and I'm certainly not implying that most Israeli's are either. But their views are very powerful.. look at Netanyahu

Actually, I was replying to Caleo, sorry, should have made that clear, pascal.

Allira

Actually, I was replying to Caleo, sorry, should have made that clear, pascal.

ah yes... I agree

It can soon morph into antisemitism, that’s all I’m saying on the matter.

Oreo, as you said. Is why I started the thread. Morphing into antisemitism is a danger to be aware of.

And being 'anti-Netanyahu' can be wrongly classified as being 'anti semitic', in an attempt to shut down the debate.

Yes and agreeing with the OP in no way excuses the actions of hamas

Allira wrote:

"I presume you mean the Israeli Government?

Not everyone in Israel is happy with what is happening now."

Yes, I do mean the present Israeli regime.
Israel as a nation state I believe is justifiable according to the pre-1967 boundaries. No arrangement is perfect in human affairs .

However "In 2008 Al Jazeera and Haaretz both reported that elements in the Palestinian leadership, including Hamas, have called for a two-state settlement based on the pre-June 1967 borders (the Green Line).[33][34]

It is very easy to refer to a country when we really mean the government that is running it. We often say we fought Germany in the second world war when really we fought the Nazi government of Germany. Most Germans did not vote for Hitler.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

What was the nationality of the German Army, the workers in the death camps, those driving Jews into ghettos before the war ?

Most Germans may not have voted for Hitler but too few stood up to the terrible things perpetrated by the Nazis. Yes I know many would have been frightened by the iron hand, the neighbour informing on neighbour. That shouldn’t have prevented mass opposition to the treatment of their Jewish neighbours.

Yes Iam

Caleo, Christ was a Jew, as was Peter and Judas

There was opposition to Hitler and they were sent to the guillotine.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57008360

There was opposition to Churchill

Anniebach

There was opposition to Churchill

Yes the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Mosley. If they had got into power we would have been fighting with the Nazis not against them. They were stopped at the battle of Cable Street in east London by the communists and the Jews.

I believe that Hitler was evil. Had I lived in Germany at that time, would I have been brave enough to speak out against him? Probably not. That lovely wee White Rose, Sophie Scholl, was hanged for her non violent opposition to the regime.
Can't remember hearing about anyone, who opposed Churchill in a non-violent way, being hanged.

I have family who lived in Germany during the 30 s and 40s. It took extremely brave, or very foolhardy people to stand against someone like Hitler who had total power and control over the entire population. Recruitment of people to spy and report on others was easy, because those who had done something to bring themselves to the attention of the police were given a choice of torture or death of them and/ or their families, or they could report on anyone who expressed the slightest criticism of the party.
The population lived in total fear So yes few did stand up but those who did were the bravest of people because they knew their own and their families lives were at great risk of ending in the most terrible ways.
This continued in similar fashion after the war with the Stasi, until 1989 when the Berlin wall came down. Imagine living like that. My cousins did. If you can watch The Lives of Others, a brilliant film which won best foreign film award some years ago.
Like Trump Hitler didn’t have the support of all but there were enough who were grateful that work, money and food promised by Hitler after the Great Depression had actually made life more comfortable.
Germans are good, bad or in between, exactly the same as us, as are people anywhere else and in the same circumstances I believe that most people would have done exactly the same to keep themselves and their loved ones safe and who can blame them.

Jackiest

It is very easy to refer to a country when we really mean the government that is running it. We often say we fought Germany in the second world war when really we fought the Nazi government of Germany. Most Germans did not vote for Hitler.

Hitler, much as I despise the man, what he did and stood for, was legally elected in 1933, so he was voted for by the majority of Germans at that time. This was the main reason that the German Lutheran church was not more outspoken that it was when the details of Hitler's politics started to dawn on it.

Probably, in 1933, most Germans, in common with the rest of the world, had no idea what the National Socialist movement actually stood for, and indeed reason suggests that many right-minded German men and women were not at all happy with the party line, but as many were forced to become members of the party in order to retain their jobs in practically every major firm, factory, shipyard, school, hospital - you name it, few felt able to protest too loudly.

But the German people as such of our grandparents' days may not have like Nazi policy, but the party did come legally to be the governing party of Germany in 1933.

AuntieE You don't need the majority of the votes to win an election you just need more seats than any other party.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

You're right Jackiest. The Nazi Party never won more than 43.9% of the vote, so had to go into coalition. Hitler then persuaded his coalition partners to pass the "Enabling Act", which mean that the Chancellor (Hitler) could pass laws without the involvement of the Reichstag or the President. He made himself a dictator.

At the time, the Nazi Party stood for many values which were popular throughout Europe. A glance at some of the British newspapers from the 1930s will confirm that. Even Sophie Scholl, who was later executed by the Nazis for her resistance, was initially impressed by the promises of a kind of "brave new world".

The first victims of the Nazis were criminals, gays, the unemployed, "lefties" - all people who were considered not to be good for society - I wouldn't mind betting that there a few people in the UK who would like to see people in those categories locked up.

Eugenics was mainstream in the 1930s - not only in Germany. People genuinely thought that "others" were somehow inferior to people of white European descent. France was probably more antisemitic than Germany in the late 1920s and 1930s. UK visitors to Germany in the early 1930s saw the warning signs and turned a blind eye. Even worse, Jews were refused entry to Palestine, which was under a British mandate and the UK refused entry to some Jews seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.

Germans can't (and don't) wash their hands of guilt, but it wasn't the only country which was anti-semitic - the whole of Europe (and beyond) could see the warning signs and did nothing before it was too late.

Can you imagine how the poor men felt being conscripted to be slaughtered on the battle fields for a cause they did not approve of. Killed if they refused or killed if they fought.