We have become a nation of scruffs!

Thank goodness the days of dressing up in formal evening clothes are mostly over. I've always been amazed at post war photos of women at Covent Garden wearing full length ball gowns to sit in the stalls or grand tier. What on earth did they do with those skirts when someone wanted to go past them in order to get to their seat?

I think you are taking this to the extreme PippaZ. Does enjoying looking smart when you go out mean you live by rules? I think it just means you enjoy looking smart, it’s good for your self esteem and your well-being.

By not acknowledging that everybody judges what other people wear, whether they want to or not is not putting yourself on a higher moral pedestal by saying you live and let live and others don’t, it’s just failing to acknowledge the reality.
It is actually possible to care about your appearance and be as fully rounded a person as somebody who doesn’t.

Just this, really

Like a game of cluedo here isn’t it ? Can’t imagine what would be deletable on this particular topic.

Blossoming - I love that!

Casdon

I think you are taking this to the extreme PippaZ. Does enjoying looking smart when you go out mean you live by rules? I think it just means you enjoy looking smart, it’s good for your self esteem and your well-being.

By not acknowledging that everybody judges what other people wear, whether they want to or not is not putting yourself on a higher moral pedestal by saying you live and let live and others don’t, it’s just failing to acknowledge the reality.
It is actually possible to care about your appearance and be as fully rounded a person as somebody who doesn’t.

If that was the case Casdon, I would agree with you. Do you really think that everybody "judges" what other people wear? I don't - judge I mean - so I don't, as you put it, accept that everyone does. I don't think I am alone in this nor was I suggesting there is any morality in either being of an authoritarian bent or a more liberal one.

However, I think it's sad that Ealdemodor even sees herself in relation to how others dress and says but nowadays I often feel overdressed - why? Wear what you want to wear with aplomb. Smile at those who are doing the same - but with a different style - in the knowledge that you both enjoy the theatre. That was what it was all about, after all.

When you see the old holiday photos from the 50's everyone is dressed up to some extent. It is lovely to see the women in nice dresses. You just don't see it anymore.

We didn't have trainers and jogging bottoms etc. in those days though.

Personally, I think there is a line between casual and scruffy. If clothes are clean and in good repair then that should be all that matters. Scruffy to me implies dirty.

I am bewildered at some of the fashions these day though - ripped jeans, low slung pants showing underpants

I had to laugh at a Tripadvisor review of a restaurant I was looking at recently for a special meal. The reviewer was very happy with it because it was full of guests of a certain disposition and demographic, well-heeled types in the know and, most importantly, no riff raff in ripped jeans, trainers and hoodies. I couldn't detect any tourists either.

I hope he wasn't there the night we went, obvious tourists lowering the tone (though we 'd left our ripped jeans and hoodies at home).

This is what you said PippaZ
‘Those who like to live by rules will judge others by clothes rules (even if they are very outdated). Those who are happy to live and let live as long as no harm is done will see the whole person.’
I think you were implying that those who ‘like to live by rules’ are inferior to those who are ‘happy to live and let live’. However, I don’t think that by choosing to dress smartly we are necessarily somebody who likes to live by the rules, I really don’t see what you mean.
I also think that we do all judge, if that’s the right word - I mean by that notice and form an opinion of a person, by what they are wearing, not to look at them in a derogatory way. We may deny we do it, but we do. This is interesting I think, we all have unconscious preconceptions. www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/finding-new-home/202005/how-we-judge-others-their-clothes

I think you were implying that those who ‘like to live by rules’ are inferior to those who are ‘happy to live and let live’.

No, I wasn't. Although I do find that comment arrogant and judgemental.

I also think that we do all judge, ... ... a person, by what they are wearing,

That's fine. That's your opinion. I do not agree with you.

I do love dressing up for special occasions especially a wedding or a meal at a fine dining restaurant. My mode of dress for the theatre would be something comfortable rather than something dressy. Each of us is different and should dress in what we feel is right for us and not what other people deem appropriate or not appropriate.

PippaZ It’s not my opinion, it’s what the research says, and there is lots of it.
neurosciencenews.com/clothing-personal-perception-15303/
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/our-gender-ourselves/201407/why-it-matters-what-we-wear
I’m not saying it’s admirable, but it is the way it is.

I appreciate that she is a research Psychologist in her day to day job but some of the referenced material she used was older than the students at her university would be allowed to put forward. She also seemed to be advertising her son's clothing line.

It was written in 2014. I wonder what work has been done on the subject since.

When a woman puts on a black dress to go to a funeral, or running tights to go to the gym, her brain is primed to behave in ways consistent with that meaning.

Just what proportion of the population of this country - not America where their funerals can be very different - would still say that a black dress at a funeral is a given anymore?

It isn't a "fact" that that is the way it is and I doubt that I am the only one who would not - particularly having read that article - disagree with your need to be right. I am very happy for you to believe what you do - I'm not stopping you from seeing the rules. Just give everyone else an equal right to their opinion and from not allowing the rules of a small group in any way swaying their judgement of another human being.

swaying to sway

I think, Ealdemodor, that you have to accept that fashions change over the years. The fellow wearing low slung trousers might actually have been very fashion conscious and ‘trendy’. He might have looked at you and thought perhaps you looked old fashioned. I think your use of the word scruffy has muddied the water because, if we have not chosen to keep up with current fashions, what may appear to some as scruffy, may actually be quite current and smart to some eyes. For example, the ‘Peaky Blinders’ look.

PippaZ I don’t have a need to be right, I’m just not agreeing with your perspective, and there is evidence which supports my view. Isn’t that the way the world works?

The first evidence I posted was from 2020, so yes, research is continuing. There is plenty more if you want to see it, I just selected a few from many.

Many refer to weddings, but I think a funeral is an occasion when people should look as though they have made an effort.

I don’t mean a suit, black tie, black dress etc, but simply to appear as if they haven’t left the house with no thought.

Tatty jeans, trainers, washed-out tee shirts and an old anorak never used to be seen at a funeral, but often are nowadays.

I attended my Uncle's funeral in England 2 years ago, I don't
possess a black coat so wore my dark blue one with a black
hat and shoes. I was the only one not in complete black .
It made me feel uncomfortable and a little ashamed.

I'm fairly sure that navy or grey is perfectly acceptable to wear for a funeral halfpint1. I attended a funeral in July, when only 30 people could go into the church but there were many more who stood outside to pay their respects. Almost everyone, inside the church, and outside, were in smart grey or navy, except one man who came in long baggy shorts, t shirt and sandals! I know that the deceased wouldn't have minded that at all!

as to funerals, i believe in the brown boots principle,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khwy-ApbEb0

I was at a Christening at the weekend. The age range apart from the baby and his little cousin - who was wearing a beautiful little dress and matching bow in her curls - was from mid 20s to early 80s. All the men wore shirt and tie with a jacket etc - some were in suits others mix and match garments. Most of the women wearing pretty dresses. One or two had styles which did not exactly flatter but it all made a lovely mix.
The priest was wearing a white shirt and gold cuff links which look lovely in the photos where he is pouring the water.
This was just a cross section of a normal family enjoying a lovely celebration with others where good food, live music and dancing were enjoyed. We had a glorious afternoon. Everyone was wearing clothes they felt were comfortable and appropriate.

Casdon

PippaZ I don’t have a need to be right, I’m just not agreeing with your perspective, and there is evidence which supports my view. Isn’t that the way the world works?

The first evidence I posted was from 2020, so yes, research is continuing. There is plenty more if you want to see it, I just selected a few from many.

Not all evidence is equal. That was very old and American and a very poor argument to convince me that anyone should wear what someone else decides is right. I am sure, though, her son will have been glad to have the free advertising for his clothing company.

I know you do not agree with my "perspective" and that is okay, I don't need you to. But I think I have said that several times now. Just stop trying to be right and agree - as is the fact - that I do not need to change my view to yours and am not asking you to agree with me. I am just asking that you accept that I do have a different view and that it is neither right nor wrong - just the way I see the world. It is quite possibly shared by 50% of the population - even if you don't rate them or what they wear - including at a funeral

There will be different points of view about whether what you wear defines you. If I met you it wouldn't - other things would, but not what you are wearing. If you met me it would but then ... would I care?

MayBeMaw

Last Night of the Proms
Katie Dereham in a spangly frock
Gareth Malone - tennis pumps and no socks.

I rest my case

Yep! Gareth should have been in the good old sparky number + high heels and Katie in the sock-less pumps. Much better!

When exactly were these unwritten rules written about so-called dress sense (and no sense) and who wrote them?

Are you sure PippaZ, that it’s me who has demonstrated a need to be right? I have never said that you don’t have a right to a different ‘perspective’ (an attempt at sarcasm perchance?), but there is plenty more evidence if you want to see it. I’d like to see yours too., then perhaps we could have a balanced debate?

I like to dress up a Little bit but try to look smart with a casual twist- I know what I mean?