Trevor Phillips' documentary about multiculturalism

I have heard that if BC had said 'actors of colour' no-one would have turned a hair. Such are the nuances of language in a delicate situation.

I meant that Mr Cumberbatch is part of the too far pendulum. I can see that my paragraph about that is not very clear. I agree that he was not being racist.

soontobe I think Benedict Cumberbatch was just clumsy in his choice of words rather than being racist.

He was at the time actually expressing concern about the lack of opportunity for black actors in Britain as below.

www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/jan/26/benedict-cumberbatch-apologises-after-calling-black-actors-coloured

"Talking on the Tavis Smiley show on PBS, Cumberbatch said: “I think as far as coloured actors go, it gets really different in the UK, and a lot of my friends have had more opportunities here [in America] than in the UK, and that’s something that needs to change.”

I am white too soontobe. My husband is Asian and my children are mixed race.

However, I have always stood up against racism, even as a 17 year old in my first job in a psychiatric hospital. In those days it was quite common for white staff to make racist comments aimed at the overseas employees who made up a large proportion of the nursing staff (and also about gay people). I found it unacceptable then and I still do.

What I really want to do Eloethan is give you a hug!
I think that you have genuine fears and concerns, and even though I am white, I think I can at least partly understand that.

Your first 3 paragraphs.
I personally have not experienced being a target of racism. And I appreciate that you may have been, or some of your relatives or people that you know.

I appreciate that there are many and numerous examples of racism in all sorts of places.
I think[I cannot speak for others] that by saying the pendulum has swung too far, I mean that it is say 15% too far.
Things like the actor B. Cumberbatch or whatever he is called, is an obvious example of that. There are lots of others.

People found to have been negligent in their duties are only too willing to cite their fear of being called a racist as the reason for their negligence. It's a popular theme that goes down well with many since the right wing press and people like Richard Littlejohn are constantly deriding equality legislation and presenting white Britons as beleaguered and fearful victims of oppressive laws.

I do not agree with this, as we have discussed before., elsewhere.

The Farage interview.
I didnt agree with all he said, in particular the parts you have quoted.

I think, and would hope that a lot of work that has been done in this area will not be undone.

I would just add that political correctness is not just about race.

I don't think anyone on here has said they believe that the pendulum has swung too far the other way with regard to race relations in Britain, and I didn't think that message was implied in the programme either (apart from Nigel Farage's ill-considered declaration which he later backtracked on!).

The feeling I get is that there are certainly rumblings of discontent about the level of immigration of people of whatever race, colour or creed, and dissatisfaction with EU rules which are perceived to have been foisted on us against the wishes of many UK citizens.

Yes, there is a section of society made up of mainly older, white residents who feel hard-done-by, but I don't get the impression that any Gransnetters belong to that group. Most of us will not have experienced racism directed against us, but that's no reason to dismiss our views and concerns. It's a very complex issue.

How many of you who have decided that the "pendulum has swung too far" have actually experienced being the target of racism?

Much progress has been made over the last few decades with regard to more equal treatment for minorities but to suggest that discrimination is a thing of the past is not borne out by the facts. There are numerous examples of discriminatory practices and many of the people who experience racism don't even bother to report it.

An investigation in 2013 by BBC's "Inside Out" programme found that housing and employment temping agencies were willing to racially discriminate if asked to do so by potential clients. Out of 30 employment agencies, 25 agreed to a request for a receptionist's job to be offered only to white workers. 17 out of 30 letting agents said they were willing to not show black families a particular house. This is just one of the many examples of people from ethnic minorities being discriminated against.

People found to have been negligent in their duties are only too willing to cite their fear of being called a racist as the reason for their negligence. It's a popular theme that goes down well with many since the right wing press and people like Richard Littlejohn are constantly deriding equality legislation and presenting white Britons as beleaguered and fearful victims of oppressive laws.

In the Trevor Phillips' programme Nigel Farage was interviewed.

He said that while concern over preventing racial discrimination in employment "would probably have been valid" 40 years ago, it is not today.

"If I talked to my children... about the question of race, they wouldn't know what I was talking about," he was reported to say.

He also said he would get rid of "much of" existing legislation.And when asked if he would retain a ban on discrimination on the grounds of race or colour, he said: "No... because we take the view, we are colour-blind. We as a party are colour-blind."

How on earth can Nigel Farage's (white) children possibly comment on the experience of black children? Yet this is the level of debate that appears to reassure many people that they can, with a clear conscience, jump on the anti "political correctness" bandwagon.

That was my impression too.
They know that it started with good intentions.

As Mishap says, it is the pendulum. The pendulum[not meaning about disability] swung or went too far.

TP and even TB acknowledged it.
Trevor Phillips, even in 2007, knew that things were amiss.

I've only just watched this programme and what struck me was that Trevor Phillips seemed to be taking responsibility on his own account, and on behalf of the Commission for Racial Equality, for the rise of an angry, white, mainly older group of voters whom a professor at Nottingham University called the 'not listened to voters'. The very voters who support UKIP with passion.
TP referred to an advert that had been placed by the CRE on billboards across London showing four brains, the African, the European and the Asian brains being exactly the same , while the fourth brain, a racist brain, was half the size of the others.
The CRE's subsequent research showed that not one racist had changed their views, but that many white people were felt that they were being made to feel guilty of a crime they hadn't committed.

It would be an irony indeed if the good intentions of the CRE were found to be a predominant cause of the rise of UKIP - and more scary than Nigel Farage himself, perhaps.

Yes, you're right, soontobe - apologies.

Nevertheless, I think her view is largely supported by what actually happened.

I do feel, though, that it is not just black junior staff who often carry the can when incidents of this nature happen, but also white junior staff. Very senior staff may well be condemned for their performance but their careers are very rarely blighted as they have been seen to be able to obtain high ranking positions in other authorities.

I don't think we are saying different things eloethan. 'cultural sensitivity' appears to have led to this. Of course its unacceptable (as is underesourced SWD.) I'd like to think that wouldn't happen now but I can't be sure of it. Trevor Philips documentary has opened up an interesting debate.

It was the Director of the Race Equality unit that said that, Eloethan, according to wikipedia.

Not the Head of the Inquiry.

Just a point about language. I believe some do not have - or at least do not commonly use - please and thank you. We are rather obsessive about it in British English, and even a simple transaction can have thank you said by both parties several times. So people who don't use please and thank you don't necessarily mean to be rude, they are unaware of the convention. Of course, others may intend to be rude!

jane10 You cite the tragic case of Victoria Climbie as an example of "dangerous political correctness".

In fact the inquiry that followed some time later found:

The junior social worker assigned to the case was only 18 months qualified and had a case load way beyond what the guidelines allowed. She had seen Victoria for only 30 minutes in a 7-month period. Her supervisor had significant mental health problems and was later found unfit to continue working as a social worker.

The paediatrician who examined Victoria thought she had scabies (although she didn't find evidence of a mite to prove it) and she thought this, plus possible historical insect bites, was the reason for scarring on the skin. Her junior had recorded that there was "no cause for concern".

Members of Victoria's (black) wider family had contacted social services on several occasions to express their concern about her wellbeing.

The social worker and child protection police officer cancelled an arranged visit to the home because they had been told that Victoria had a skin infection and they were nervous of contracting it.

When Victoria attended hospital with severe scalding to her head, the consultant felt that she was being abused but still wrote "Able to discharge" on her notes.

Communications between doctors, social workers, police officers, etc., were poor and it was often assumed that matters were being investigated or followed up when they weren't.

The inquiry concluded that many of the council's departments were under staffed, underfunded and poorly managed and that money had been diverted from child protection to education.

The Director of Social Services was criticised for re-structuring the department and making it virtually unworkable.

The head of the inquiry said that there was "an implicit message that it is acceptable for ethnic minorities to receive poor service under the guise of cultural sensitivity."

It was also pointed out that "for a large number of (black) front line staff - if the finger of blame pointed at them - they don't end up in jobs in other local authorities. This is how institutional racism operates" (The (white) Director of Social Services who had been condemned for her incompetence just moved to another senior post in the local authority where I live).

One of the most difficult things when teaching English to non-English speaking immigrants is the nuance of tone. Just think how many ways you can say the simple word "yes" – doubtfully, enthusiastically, begrudgingly and so on – all implied by the tone of your voice. This was particularly a problem with people from India who, because of the different intonation of Indian languages, can sound abrupt and even impolite when speaking English.

I see nothing wrong in saying a person found some Africans rude but it cannot be classed a cultural thing unless every person apart from the Africans said please and thank you . And there are many countries in Africa , is it fair to speak of the cultures in a continent as one culture ?

Pint darling or same again is a bit different to just saying, beer.

petras example does illustrate a fundamental cultural difference very well though! I notice cultural differences between eg Italians and us in our attitudes to queuing but somehow its OK to comment on that but its not OK to say publicly that Africans are rude. Trevor P and his organisation obviously did a good job making white people feel guilty. Its so good for all this to be openly discussed.

I doubt every British person says please and thank you at a pub bar, in fact they do not. I asked my niece who did pub work when at university , she said more often than not it was - pint darling or same again

Do we have a right to demand please and thank you? We may like to hear it but demand ? I did remind my children when they were tiny to say please

I can honestly say that in my own area it wasn't colour but culture that was/is the problem.
Example: round about the year 2000 we had a huge influx of African workers, mainly to work in the care industry. Many of these workers used my local pub where my friend was a barmaid. They would never use the word please or thank you. This really angered my friend, because as we know, please and thank you is in our DNA. My friend asked them why they didn't use these polite terms. They said: in our countries the job you do (ie, serving ) means nothing! My friend informed them that they wouldn't be served unless they asked politely.
It was also very interesting to see that the South Africans wouldn't talk to the Zimbarbwians. There was more racism going on between all these African countries than between 'us and them'

All state school meals should be free. From 4- 18. IMO.

Offend them by using wrong words.

I should hope that this no longer becomes the case.

Well said.

I think it has been a big shame that in some instances, white people have been afraid to talk to people of colour, in case they offend them.

Discussing Trevor Phillips comments, race and political correctness on This Week, 19th March, Nihal Arthanayake, a broadcaster for BBC Asian Network spoke my mind perfectly. He did a piece for camera and 'on the settee' were Micheal Portillo and Dianne Abbot.

Abbot didn't like his point of view at all. She said Trevor Phillips was a friend of hers but he was 'Peddling factoids about race'. She said white people 'were not afraid' of debating race issues, especially because of fear of political correctness. She said the cause people 'do not' talk about race was 'all to do with economics'. . Make your mind up first we were not worried about talking about race issues, then we were told we don't because of economics?

Abbot then said her other very good friend, Yasmin Alibhai Brown constantly speaks openly about race issues. Nihal gave a good reply when he said yes, you, Yasmin Alibhai Brown, Trevor Phillips and myself do feel free to speak about race issues but white people don't feel the same because they are immediately called racist.

Nihal then asked her if she would admit that the authorities did not bring race into the picture with the Asian grooming gangs because of fear of being called racist ( official reports do confirm this was part of the problem). Abbot did not agree saying it was "nothing to do with political correctness" it was "all about the politics. The way the vote is organised in cities like Rotherham, people were nervous of upsetting key 'power brokers' in those communities".

When Andrew Neil pointed out she once said "White people love playing Divide and Rule, we should not play their game" and asked her if Michael Portillo had reversed her comment and said black people like to play Divide and Rule and we , white people, should not not play their game, that would be a racist remark, no? Abbot said "No not at all". Of course it would! but the point was made and she couldn't see it. She said the remark was made by herself with regard to the British Empire. It was pointed out by all 3 of her fellow presenters she said the remark over the Stephen Lawrence case! She didn't like having her card marked but Nihal gave the best response by saying you did say it over Stephen Lawrence but "Asian communities are more than good enough to do that without the British Empire".

It's good to have open, adult, honest debate about multiculturalism and race issues IMHO but there is always the 'pure irony' that in doing so we can be called racist, bigoted by some who simply refuserefuse to acknowledge there is an issue at all.