A very English Scandal

There are two schools of thought on this Maryeliza the one that you propound ( and perhaps others, I haven’t read the whole thread) and the other ( which I happen to agree with) which doesn’t believe that everyone is a victim of something or other and we have free will and make choices.

I rather thought you might have seen the irony in the post you quote but maybe it was just a tiny bit too subtle for you. And what do you mean about having the thread pulled - if its what I think you do, you couldn't be more wrong so be careful with your innuendos.

Annie was ironic. You weren’t.

Hoist with your own petard.....

You haven't read the whole thread - bless but nevertheless you can draw conclusions which by the way are totally wrong. Now I've heard everything - the gift that keeps on giving. Why not RTFT?

Eglantine thats so ridiculous I CBA. I see you haven't replied about what you meant about the thread pulling ( although I actually think you mean deleting but whats in a word)

Do you enjoy being at odds with the whole world Maryeliza?
You must get some sort of perverse pleasure from the number of people on forums that you insult.....it’s a bit sad.

Oh you can duck and dive all you want, but you said what you said.

You said it, you said it, you said it!

Think “ I CBA” is short for “Oh damn I have made myself look very silly -again”.

Perhaps there are women - and men - who go into sex work solely because they enjoy it.

However, I think the opinion of most people who have actually worked with prostitutes is that it is only a truly "free choice" in a small number of cases. Even then, I believe it is acknowledged that children who have been sexually abused are more likely to form distorted and damaging sexual relationships in later years. I believe one indicator of a child having been sexually abused is the presence of over-sexualised behaviour and an inability to trust and form loving relationships.

Many sex workers, male and female, have had disturbed childhoods, perhaps including sexual and/or physical abuse. Additionally, it is well known that prostitution is often the only means of getting enough money to fund addiction.

On the Keeler/Profumo issue, Christine Keeler was only 19 years old and was from a very different background from John Profumo who attended Harrow and Oxford and was a member of the Bullingdon Club. He had an important political position and must have been around 40 years of age when he started a sexual relationship with Keeler. Who should have known better - she or an experienced man twice her age?

An experienced older man offering a way in to an exciting glamorous lifestyle? Hmmm. At 19 I might have given it a thought!!

Sex workers consider the term “prostitute” to be offensive in regard to the job they have chosen.

Those who “work” with sex workers are, of course, working with those who are in need of help, so they will only see one section of those involved in the sex industry. They will have very little, if any, contact with those who are successful and happy in what they do. So their experience and perception is likely to be very skewed and not representative of sex workers as a whole.

Children who have been sexually abused are at risk of forming damaging sexual relationships in later years, in marriage and outside marriage, but this observation only applies to the subject of sex work if you see this as damaging and distorted.

Eloethan wrote:

On the Keeler/Profumo issue, Christine Keeler was only 19 years old and was from a very different background from John Profumo who attended Harrow and Oxford and was a member of the Bullingdon Club. He had an important political position and must have been around 40 years of age when he started a sexual relationship with Keeler. Who should have known better - she or an experienced man twice her age?

That's a very important ethic;
moral responsibility is proportionate to power. I like to apply that ethic across the board, including the Jeremy Thorpe affair.

Keeler had a three week affair with Profumo, whilst living with another man and having an affair with the Russian. This - all 19 year old girls are naive victims is rubbish and comparing Keeler with the children in Rotherham was so wrong.

At 19 I was going out with a man 12 yrs older than me, in 1965 some thought this 'not quite right'.
He was perceived as 'glamorous' as he had a lovely old sailing boat and raced at Brands Hatch.
Looking back I know I got more out of that 4yr relationship than he did. It changed my life completely. That life was a south London girl, living in a high rise flat, disfunctional family, no education from 14.
Without that introduction into a completely different world, would I be in the position I am now: no way.

Jane10, you might have considered an older experienced man offering an exciting glamorous lifestyle. I wouldn't and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Thanks to Elothan for her summary of the issues that contribute to the way some boys and girls drift or are driven into sex work. I recognise that my involvement with that group was, as you say, largely with people who were in difficulty. I did meet sex workers who were from 'privileged' families but none of them had escaped some form of abuse. I am not suggesting all sex workers have abuse in their backgrounds. I suspect its likely most of them do.

I'm sure you all understand that at 19 back in those days CK was still regarded as a child.The age of majority was 21 .There are NO child sex workers ,only abused children.If a 12 or 13 year old is making a "living" out of sex its because someone treated them appallinly to begin with.The she wanted it arguement ..or in cases like JT he enjoyed it doesn't ring true.IF the book is to be believed then Norman Scott wasn't "made love to" he was assaulted until he bled. All because he was looking for help and a roof over his head.Of course his dependency and obsession with JT will have stemmed from that too,nobody ever heard of Stockholm syndrom?

So back in those days parents who gave permission for their daughters to marry under age 21 were we’re giving permission for their daughters to be sexually abused

It’s purely speculation that most sex workers are likely to have been abused, influenced by your involvement with those who had been abused.

But it is abusive to insinuate that most sex workers must have been abused. Or like a previous poster all sex workers.

Is there any other group of workers that has to take this form of verbal abuse for simply being successful and happy in their job. Or where the problems of some workers are used to smear a whole group?

I so agree Eglantine, this- all girls are victims claim is insulting to many girls.

The only people who have stated "all girls are victims" are the people who are denying this. Isn't it rather strange to even try to combat an argument by posting things that have never been said? Or is it in fact just a way of distracting attention from an argument that you have lost. That Keeler, Rice Davies and Scott all suffered at the hands of more powerful men at a time when they were young and impressionable. That men like Jeremy Thorpe and Profumo presented an image of respectability and conformity to the public whilst indulging in another lifestyle altogether. Whichever way you look at it the men of power involved don't come out of this well. And you do wonder how much subterfuge still takes place.

How did Keeler suffer from a three week fling with Profumo?

“If a girl chooses to be a hostess in a night club or a sex worker she is a victim of men” Said ironically and perhaps should have had a question mark.

Reply “That’s right ab. You got it at last”

How is that not saying “all”

Would it help if we referred to women rather than girls. We are adults at 18.

Annie Scott has given a graphic account of how he was pressured into sex with Thorpe. Keeler was more circumspect, (possibly because she had children) but neither you nor I know what sort of sex was involved, or how well she was at the time. However a history of abuse, a dead baby and the photographer's story indicate that she was certainly dominated and commanded by men. However forget Keeler how do you feel about men in power who pretend to be pillars of the establishment whilst living secret dissolute lives. Or is that all right because it is a personal choice?

I used to live close to a what used to be called a "red light" district. I met plenty of women who were sex workers. Some felt they had no other choice as they had no education or skills, others chose to do the work as they saw it as a way of being able to support themselves and working hours which fitted around their life. They mostly worked for pimps as by doing so offered a degree of safety. To say that they were all victims is, from my experience, untrue. As I said for some it was a conscious choice, others felt it was the only choice they had.

trisher, your problem is with wealthy men, no difference in a man in power having an affair to a milkman having an affair , no difference in the girl having an affair with a wealthy man to the girl having an affair with the milkman.

You don’t mention Mandy Rice Davies, Keeler’s close friend, this ‘victim’ went on to open a nightclub ‘Mandy’s Candies,

Both girls were mistresses of Rachman , coincidence their string of affairs were with wealthy men . These girls knew what they wanted , they chose to live their lives as mistresses and to have flings at the same time. Their choice.