Estranged from one, but lost so many others

This happens to us a long time ago during my brothers argument with my dad. We didn’t take sides but brother cut us all off. My elder brother now has limited contact with him a couple of times a year and has found out he has early dementia he has also been estranged from his daughter my niece and she has not seen him in 21 years. Such a sad end to his life because he will no longer remember any of us with this diagnosis.

Yes, it's really hard. In counselling we went through my entire family tree and were able to look at all the ways my mum had already damaged those relationships before estrangement but it was still a blow.

You might not expect people to take sides but sometimes abusive people do expect, even demand that.

I personally also think sometimes the family system decides as a whole its easier to cut off the person wanting to speak the truth than it is to unravel it all and deal with the pain caused as a result.

Rug sweeping basically.

It is worth it for the peace and to have the option to create your own positive support system

How does your mother-in-law feel about being cut off from her grandchildren?

That's very sad MamaBear but very common I'm sorry to say.

We've lost our only GC as well as our son due to our estrangement. He's lost apart from his brother, his entire family and not because anyone took our side, but because he estranged them too.

MamaBear20 -- I have no family on either side... Husband and I are both the Scapegoats of Our 'family'. When I walked away, everyone blamed Me so I ended up alone, minus my husband.

They made their choices and I made mine. Being 'alone' isn't nice but it's still better then staying in the Goat role...

We had exactly the same thing really....and I said good riddance to them all. They were nothing but a constant nuisance, and our children were being affected by overhearing remarks that were basically just running us down all the time. We had twenty years of peace in the end and it was the best thing we ever did. You will NEVER change them. Look after yourselves.

Yes, there is collateral damage.

Harris I’m sorry to hear that about your brother. It’s hard to lose contact with a sibling. With my SIL I tried to maintain a relationship and issued several invitations that she turned down. She was clear that she didn’t want anything to do with us unless her mother was also invited, so I dropped the rope and left if to my husband to handle his family. He never reached out to her and here we are two and a half years later. I wonder who really cut off who?

Starblaze “ You might not expect people to take sides but sometimes abusive people do expect, even demand that.”

That is very true. MIL could very well have demanded the rest of the family pick a side or suffer her abuse. There was definitely a very dysfunctional family system of “you’re either with us or you’re against us”. I think to admit MIL’s behavior was the problem would have toppled the whole dysfunctional family structure.

Moonlight I truely wouldn’t know how MIL feels about being cut off from my children. I haven’t had any contact with her to ask. She’s made no attempts to connect with my children. And she refused to change her behavior in order to re-establish a relationship with my family. She can’t miss them too terribly if she refuses to stop throwing tantrums in order to see them.

Smileless that must be very hard. I wonder, did any of the family ever reach out to him or try to maintain contact? For my husband, the only time family reached out to him was to pressure him to speak to MIL. They did not seem interested in maintaining their own relationships with him if MIL wasn’t included.

HolyHannah I agree being alone is better than being mistreated.

MamaBear20 -- Exactly. It's hard to believe that anyone really 'misses' their AC or grand-children when many EP's flatly refuse to apologize. And when I say flatly, I mean even if they have done one/multiple things that they should apologize for...

And most people who have dealt with this type of person know you're on "their side" or You are gonna see the 'horns'. Why would anyone 'side' with the Goats? Agreeing with Us makes You the next target... We knew what the result would be. The idea that We are the 'bad guys' even with the consequence being we are 'orphans', it makes little sense that We would walk away if they are the loving 'family' they claim to be. But what do We know...

HolyHannah Exactly this! If I’m telling a grandparent exactly the behavior that is hurting me and needs to stop in order to see my kids (their grandkids), wouldn’t they just stop doI got it if they really missed the grandkids so badly? When people say they would do anything to have the relationships back, it often seems they would do anything EXCEPT own up to what they did wrong, apologize for it, and stop repeating the behavior.

I would own up to any behaviour I had done to hurt a loved one, I would and have apologized a thousand times for whatever I did that was hurtful, and if it was explained to me what I had done/said wrong, I would never repeat that behaviour again, if it meant I could reconcile.

Mamabear I think sometimes people struggle with the idea that whole families can be dysfunctional but they are like echo chambers. Everyone is just so used to hearing the same things and the scapegoat wanting to add some new thoughts or truth to all the same old sounds pinging about just gets pushed out

Our ES saw his paternal GM a couple of times MamaBear but hasn't had contact with her for a few years.

His contact with his brother is very sporadic. Our DS was over here for Christmas a couple of years ago and said it was awkward when he was at their house because our eldest GC started asking questions about us. He didn't know how to respond and our ES and his wife quickly changed the subject.

Last year when visiting his mum at her care home, Mr. S. literally walked into our ES's m.i.l. as he was going one way through a door he'd just opened and she was coming the other way.

She asked after us both and then asked him for a hug which was totally unexpected as you can imagine but yes, they hugged.

My parents were always gatekeepers to my extended family ever since I was a child. No one has social media and I wasn't allowed to know phone numbers or addresses. Ever since estranging from my parents I have lost touch with aunts and uncles.

My parents also made sure to turn everyone against us with only giving them half facts. Example my parents asked everyone shouldn't grandparents be able to help out? We just tried to help Kelly with toilet training. The truth is that my son was 2 with severe special needs and my dad ignored me repeatedly to not take him to the toilet and then he held him against the toilet while he protested. He almost got into a physical altercation with my husband when my husband said that's enough, let him go. She also convinced everyone that my son was 'normal' and that I just had therapists say he had special needs. Lol he's 6 and mostly nonverbal with low comprehension on things.

I miss some of my extended family. I never got to say my side although I don't know that I would have. My mum sees my uncle regularly and she delights in telling me that he's on her side. He also told her to take up the offer of therapy with me, he said that the therapist would force me to let them babysit our kids. He has zero idea of the sexual abuse. That's why my mum won't go to therapy, she knows it would all come out. I still talk to him occasionally on facebook but he hasn't said anything about my mum and I haven't either. Not sure what I would respond if he ever demands I let my mum see my kids.

Ironflower -- I am truly sorry for your situation. I really don't know what else to say...

On the subject of half-truths? My 'mom' was A-grade when it comes to using those...

Mom -- "Hannah is 'special' and is basically broken. Look at all her mental health issues (MHI's)... Sooo 'sad'...." add a condescending head shake for added effect.

Truth -- I DO have MHI's. I have a list of them. I'm "certifiably crazy" (and yes -- I do joke about my MHI's because it beats the f**k out of being depressed)

Mom -- "I so wish there was something I could 'do' to help Hannah..." add giant sigh

Truth -- There IS something she could do to 'help' Me. She could "listen" and grasp that how she 'raised' Me was not only not the 'perfection'/good 'mom' she told herself she was, but that she was abusive and that has had mental health consequences for ME. Her gas-lighting is one of those 'things' she could "stop doing" that WOULD have "helped" Me.

Mom -- "Well IF I did these 'bad things' that You say I did, why can't I remember??? Surely I would 'remember' doing something so terrible."

A1 -- Well, maybe you don't want to remember because the truth paints you in a 'not very positive' light... So rather then admit you did something crappy it's easier (and mentally 'safer') to say, "That never happened..." and the 'worry'/guilt/shame is 'erased'.

A2 -- Memory is often based around emotional impact. People tend to remember things more strongly when they feel emotional pain. An abuse victim is the one being hurt in the moment an abuser is abusing. The abuser isn't feeling "pain" in the encounter/situation so the memory implant/impact isn't as significant/if at all.

A3 -- You just don't CARE. If you say or do anything that someone else doesn't 'like'? Tough on THEM. You had a 'reason'. You were 'justified' and they are just plain wrong to object in any way.

That's very sad Ironflower I wonder why some feel the need to turn others against the person/people who has estranged them or the person/people they've estranged from.

Our ES and his wife tried very hard to create problems between us and our DS. Thankfully he eventually realised this was what they were doing, but it was a frightening time when we thought we might lose him too.

In my situation my brother is the one person I did try to tell the truth to for 2 reasons

1. He would not stop hounding me and asking me questions about my estrangement. He indicated several times he was under huge pressure to do this and even said several times I should talk to mum again so she would get off his back.

2. He made it clear to me that he was not prepared to have a relationship with me unless I was fully part of the family and explaining why I couldn't do that was my only option.

My brother was the only family member I fought for because of the deep love I had for him and ultimately I decided to let him go because he had too much learned behaviour from them. Him engaging in that not only hurt me but it was harming him in ways that he may never realise his behaviour was wrong if he continued to use it and justify it to himself.

Starblaze

Same with my sister.

However, it was meant to fail from the beginning.

My parents made sure we were never true sisters. We were raised to compete for whom "was the best daughter, who loved them the most"

My sister is also the total opposite , in appearance, personality, likes, etc. She is not a person I would have picked as a friend or acquaintance. Way too many incompatibilities.

She knows how cuckoo my parents are and agrees with me they are mentally unstanble
However, she chooses to mimic their behaviour and say "this is how they are, what can I do"

She chose to become their flying monkey and golden child.

It hurts but it is what it is. I made peace with it.

The funny thing is that as soon as my sister cut me off, my narc parents started emailing me again, a decade after I cut them off. Same old same old guilt trips and how I am abusing my kids by denying them the love of grandparents, aunt and cousins and a relationship with them.
In their mind, it is their right. Nothing will convince them otherwise

Hithere I can totally understand. Its an impossible choice where we never get to win

Also I seem to go through cycles where sometimes my old thinking and the result of manipulation and gaslighting creeps back in...

It makes things really difficult to see clearly at times

Yes being estranged from a family member causes a ripple effect. My Cousin fell out with his Sister and his Mum, my aunt never saw her grandchildren grow up. All reconciled later in life but the hurt never really went away.

It's good to hear that they were reconciled later Judy but as you say the hurt never really goes away and all those years your aunt missed with her GC can never be replaced for them or her.