Never dreamt this could happen

Hithere- is that really the case?

As a grandparent dealing with estrangement all I want to do is spend some time with my grandchild. Simple really.

I have two other grandchildren from whom I am not estranged, but they live too far away for me to see more than a few times a year.
I have no control over their lives or any decisions they make.
After raising my own family I love the freedom I have in just enjoying the company of my grandsons, and they mine.
My little grand-daughter is almost a year old and has no idea she has a loving family out there who just want her to know how much she is loved.
For whatever unfathomable reason my DIL actively seeks to deprive her of that. I cannot and will never understand it, although I am forced to accept it.

Velaine, I wish you good luck - with DIL, but also with GN!

Smileless2012

It isn't ridiculous it's one way of taking control and avoiding the pain of estrangement for all concerned, in particular children who are suddenly deprived of their GP's.

As is said over and over again on this topic, it's the rights of the children that should be considered and where possible protected and not just the rights of the parents.

What about the rights of the child not to be around someone who says mean or negative things about the mum and/or dad?

Surely you must see how damaging that dynamic would be for a child?

Realistically if there isn’t enough maturity or emotional intelligence in an adult to know that they shouldn’t be disparaging a child’s parent within earshot of that child, then that person really shouldn’t be around the child.

Children have the right to not hear a grandparent or other relative not talk badly about their parent.

If the grandparent, or other relative chooses to do so, that is on them and it is fully reasonable that a parent would thus limit or cut contact with that person.

It is boundaries and consequences. The boundary = do not talk badly about a parent to a child or there will be a consequence = limited or no contact. By allowing a grandparent or other relative to continue bad behavior, we are also teaching our children that it is ok to allow people to cross boundaries and have no consequences.

This is the exact scenario that resulted in my own mother being cut off from my kids. I spent 4 years trying to discuss our differences. We agreed to not bring the kids into it. She lied to my face. It ended with one of my children being suicidal.

So no, there is no scenario I can think of that would seem reasonable to continue to allow a child contact with an adult who does not have the best interest of the child front and center and insists on talking badly about a parent around the child.

I also wonder what the discussion would be like if the person talking badly about a parent was NOT a relative? Would it still seem reasonable to overlook and accept bad behavior?

Freedom

That is horrible, I am so sorry

Where has it even been suggested Hithere that GP's want the role and decision making of the parents?

Suggesting that if there are concerns about what might be said to or within the hearing of a child, that this can be managed by one or both parents always being present is simply that, a suggestion.

It's workable; we did it when I was not in contact with my m.i.l. and Mr. S. continued to take our boys to see their GP's.

In some cases solutions are sort to avoid estrangement, in some cases estrangement is the only solution and in some cases it's the 'go too' solution.

It's not always in the best interests of children for estrangement to happen. For them to lose the GP's they know and love. Sometimes the decision to estrange has nothing to do with what's best for the children, what's in their best interests doesn't even come into the equation.

Let's not kid ourselves that there aren't some GP's who have lost their AC and their GC not because they're at fault, but because their AC and/or partner is.

Hithere

Thank you. I am happy to report that my child is doing well, though it has been a 3 year battle and the work still is not done. It literally changes lives, theirs and ours.

No one ever wants to be part of a population that has had a child try to harm themselves. And it was fully preventable. It doesn't matter if it is the maternal or paternal grandparent, it is never ok to speak badly about a child's parent where a child can hear. No matter what the relationship is with the parent.

And it’s still not the parents ‘fault’

Parents hold all the power. End of. They make decisions about what they feel is best for their children.
There is no power struggle because that means another side believes they have power. They don’t.

Smileless2012

Where has it even been suggested Hithere that GP's want the role and decision making of the parents?

Suggesting that if there are concerns about what might be said to or within the hearing of a child, that this can be managed by one or both parents always being present is simply that, a suggestion.

It's workable; we did it when I was not in contact with my m.i.l. and Mr. S. continued to take our boys to see their GP's.

In some cases solutions are sort to avoid estrangement, in some cases estrangement is the only solution and in some cases it's the 'go too' solution.

It's not always in the best interests of children for estrangement to happen. For them to lose the GP's they know and love. Sometimes the decision to estrange has nothing to do with what's best for the children, what's in their best interests doesn't even come into the equation.

Let's not kid ourselves that there aren't some GP's who have lost their AC and their GC not because they're at fault, but because their AC and/or partner is.

Completely agree that there are numerous scenarios in which that happens.

More likely there is a lack of accountability for behaviour and harsh words on both sides.

In the particular scenario that I replied about, my assessment is that an adult should be able to control and regulate their behaviour in front of a child.

I do understand and to be honest I did the same as you, my DH did still take my children to see his mum even after I stopped going.

In hindsight I did not adequately protect my children. My MIL was not dangerous or abusive, but she was negative, passive aggressive and could not hold her tongue.

Shockingly this meant my children did not like her.

My point is that in continuing (in this particular scenario) contact is damaging. Why did I think it was ok to keep exposing my children to this type of person? My DH did tell his mum to pack it in, but that didn’t change the fact the children had heard what she was saying.

So why am I accountable for my behaviour (in removing myself), but she was not?

As I’ve said before I now see I should have been firmer from the beginning, I made a rod for my own back. My realisation was that I could not change her or her behaviour - so I did choose to maintain the contact via my DH and it wasn’t good for my children.

If there is a mindset of “well I didn’t do anything”, in my honest opinion it’s a lost cause - no-one is perfect, we all make mistakes. Reflection and accountability are how these things can be resolved but it needs to happen on both sides.

So from my own experience, I’d advocate for anyone who doubts the ability of any adult to regulate themselves appropriately around their children, to remove their children from that persons presence. And that is in the best interests of the rights of that child.

I am estranged from my mother, I never say a bad word about her to my children or grandchildren, beyond the fact that we don’t get on, and they are all in touch. I’m not sure she shows me the same courtesy, but that’s just her.

Madgran77

*I think sometimes, expectations from our generation are way too high, our children have to go and make their own lives, and their new family will, and should always take priority.
We do not own our children, and God knows, I wouldn’t want my children visiting me out of a sense of duty.*

True, but this does not relate to estrangement which is something very different even to visiting out of duty.

I disagree. I think it does relate. Often expectations that are too high lead to conflict and can lead to estrangement

I can never understand why anyone would want to deny a child a loving relationship with a grandparent. Or why they should think that the nuclear family of mum, dad and 2.4 children could ever stand entirely alone in our chaotic world. Extended families, for all their faults, offer support in times of trouble, and valuable lessons in how to get on with other people.

If it hadn't been for my family rallying round when I needed them, I probably wouldn't have survived.

I have huge sympathy for anyone who is estranged from other members of their family. It is sad and a wound that will never fully heal. I'm afraid though I can't offer much hope that things will get better. Best to get on with your own life and accept what has happened.

Grannyrose15
Please read the post from freedom in this same page.

This did sounds very insecure and she seems to want to cut off everything and everyone who was in your son’s previous life. In a minor way we have this with a sil who will never attend family gatherings and never visit us though we are allowed and I mean allowed to visit them , only if we ask, of course. It is so sad and I feel for you missing a dear gc. Would it help if you sent a card or something saying how much you miss them all and maybe you could get together, if only in a park or somewhere neutral? If you are always nice and friendly and don’t give her any reason whatsoever to turn her back maybe she will mature a bit and stop seeing you all as a threat? Not easy because she sounds like a nasty one but do your best. Can you ring your son privately and say how you feel? He may not realise.

did =dil

I have no doubt that my mother does love my children. She just hates me more.

I am quite sure that those who do not know both sides of the story could not understand how I could cut off a loving Grandparent.

Just wondering, freedom, if you are talking about this particular case or another family? If it is this then of course that changes things. We only hear what writers want us to hear of course and as you said, there is often another side to the story.

I am talking about my own story. My own personal experience with my own mother.

Freedomfromthepast
I understand .
You just need to accept that not many people will.

Our children saw very little of their grandparents because we live in Australia. When they did come, or we went over,it tended to be weeks at a time which was quite hard really. We didn’t have a bad relationship and often phoned but it was different. In those days they didn’t have zoom or anything like that and I doubt either set of grandparents would have been comfortable with it to be honest. I get it about not getting on with your mother. It happens and is more common than you might think. Sometimes things get better over time and when children get older but not always.

"an adult should be able to control and regulate their behaviour in front of a child" absolutely Lolo. There wasn't any evidence that during that time my m.i.l. would have said anything that was inappropriate, but because of how she was behaving it was a real concern, which is why Mr. S. always took them to see his parents, and stayed with them while they were there.

The welfare of our children is paramount and I understand why you took the decision that you did freedomfromthepast, and having spent 4 years trying to resolve the problem, clearly this was not a decision taken lightly.

My relationship with my m.i.l. did improve eventually and her compassion and support, especially in the first few years of our estrangement was priceless.

Our ES estranged her too but she remains close to our other son and although she's of course hurt that she never got to see 2 of her GGC, she has others.

My mum, who died last year was never given the chance to be a GGM even though her only GGC lived just a few doors away from her.

Children have the right to not hear a grandparent or other relative not talk badly about their parent

I agree. I am sorry about your daughter freedom and clearly, after trying so hard, your decision was the right one.

I don't agree Sara that "not many people will..understand". I think that many will be able to see exactly why freedom made her decision, because they will not allow their own different experiences of estrangement to cloud their viewpoint on the experience that freedom describes.

Madgran
I’m not sure you’re right, I think unless people have first hand experience, they find it very hard to understand how some people feel the need to estrange.
My personal experience is that my friends get why I’ve done it, but think it’s not something they could ever do themselves, under any circumstances.

Sara I was thinking specifically about this site where I see many examples of people who do not allow their own experience of estrangement to cloud their understanding of why another poster has done what they have done. I also see the opposite.

My personal experience, away from this site, would be that there are, as you describe, people who feel that they could never estrange regardless of any circumstances. When they say that despite understanding why someone else has done it, they can't get their heads around the potential need for themselves if they experienced particular circumstances. I think this is because they simply cannot picture their circumstances being so different with a family member from what they know as their reality.

It is good that you are clear about your own personal decision and that it is the right one for you.