SUPPORT for all living with estrangement

Last little message to Nana49, I can empathize with what you have been through and know how hard it is.

I am fully at the end with my daughter right now but like you done you went to court and that was a brave step for you.
At this moment in time it is crossing my mind about going to court to get some contact time with my GC as any route for that through their mother is useless.
I fully understand your last line of your post where you say
you fully admit defeat and back out gracefully.

3nanny6 I am so sorry to hea about what has happened.

After reading the stories of those still in touch with estranged children and the horrible things that they have said to them. My heart breaks for you. .Makes me glad I haven't spoke to my son in over a year. I would rather have silence that having him swear and say vile things to me. The email and letter he sent was bad enough.

Because of silence in a way it's made it easier. I wonder everyday how they are but it was his choice not mine. He is still my son and still my grandson's whether he or my daughter in law like it or not. He can not escape that fact. He may have erased me from their life's but I haven't erased him or my grandson's. I only have pictures of my grandson's up well the 2 I have pictures of . I image their brother looks like them. But since August put away all photos showing my son and daughter in law. I couldn't bear looking at their smiling faces.

Enough of that.

Hugshelp I hope you are feeling a lot better than you were. ?

Supposed to be a sunny bank holiday. Had 10 bags of compost delivered yesterday. So I am in for a busy time.

Take care all. ?

So good to see you on the new thread 3nanny and no need for any apologies; you've clearly been having a difficult time of late.

I wonder if there's a strange feeling of relief for you following that last 'phone call with your D. It goes without saying that you are and will continue to be worried about your GC, but to feel that there will be no more painful and deeply upsetting conversations with your D, may in someway feel as if at least one weight has been lifted from your shoulders.

We are all very aware of the risk to the relationship with an AC if a GP goes to court for access to their GC and as well as thinking carefully about this, which I know you'll do, you need to get some in depth legal advice.

The fact that you have an established relationship with the children is a must and SS's being involved due to her lack of parenting skills, may also go in your favour.

Had you not gone to the house and found that man there, alone with the children, SS's would have had no way of knowing. It's very concerning and my heart goes out to you as I can only begin to imagine how distressing this must be.

I feel exactly the same Whiff. There's a lot to be said for no contact; no nastiness, no attempts of manipulation and control. Despite the enormous void that is left, at least there is the space to begin to accept and heal from this trauma.

Like you, we can only imagine what our GS's look like, what their voices are like and the sound of their laughter. After more than 8 years, I haven't 'gone there' for some time now and don't consider myself to be a GM at all.

My dearest friend is on her way to stay for a few days. So excited as we haven't seen one another since last August. Sunshine, BBQ's and G&T's are definitely on the menu.

Make sure you take some time out from your compost to enjoy the*Whiff*.

Sending you all love and (((hugs))) dear friends x.

Thank-you All for your kind messages and mostly for the support that hearing from others who for one reason or another have found themselves with the loss of G.C.

Today is going to be my first step in moving forward and it is true Smileless that the last upsetting phone-call from my D
(who right now I cannot even bear to call her DD) is over and done with. l am amazed I struggled on still trying to be her mum and TBH being met by the man at her house was the last straw . As you say Smileless that is the point that pushed me into action and l feel relieved I have told her that I want nothing more to do with her.

I know there is a risk about taking the court route and I will look at that in depth, as far as I know the first legal step is to apply for mediation although that is when the mediator interviews you to decide if the relationship is fully broken down and if so then they give you the go ahead to apply to the court, I am going to be thinking about that in the next week or so. It comes at a price but to me my GC are priceless
although I know I have to be sensible and weigh up just how much finances can get eaten up.
The SW did not call back on Friday but he had already told me that the information about the man in the house was
"worrying" and he would be sharing that information with the other health professionals involved in her case.
My D has taken herself into areas of her own making and at the moment I can do nothing else for her.

Enough of all this now,
I hope you all have got the lovely weather which seems to be all over the U.K. and about time we need it.
I have a lot of gardening to get done although unlike Whiff :
with your 10 bags of compost you are going to be a busy lady.
I have already bought several packs of those marinaded chicken skewered BBQ foods and mini sweetcorns in a garlic and lime dressing plus plenty of salad to go with it, so I
am going to get a bit of sun if I can.
Sending good wishes to all, and take care.

Smileless2012

A warm welcome to our support thread Nana. There are always mixed emotions when we get a new poster. Sadness for the pain we know you have been and are going through, as well as being pleased that you've found us and have been able to share.

You really have been through the mill, I am sorry. As many of us have learned through experience there's no shame in admitting defeat, backing off and moving on indeed it's the only way of dealing with this long term.

The physical and emotional damage of being unable to do so is frightening. It's truly heartbreaking to face the fact that our own child doesn't wasn't us around any more.

Thanks Whiff. I refer to our girls as our girls because from the day we moved to our new home and they introduced themselves because we're neighbours, they've been a breath of fresh air and have helped to fill the void that our estrangement and our DS living in Aus. has left.

When you've been fortunate to have shared your life with a wonderful husband and father there, cannot be a time when you'll ever stop grieving for their loss.

Thank you so much for your warm words, yes it is hard whatever choices you make, in my experience estrangement has an edge of PTSD about it, I am not a doctor or anything of the sort, but it feels like a bereavement, that you learn to live with. Its incredibly hard to deal with and I can honestly say that at my age, and I haven't had a completely straightforward life, it is definitely the hardest thing I have had to deal with, not just losing our daughter but also our beloved grandchildren who we adored. Sometimes though you have to let things go for the sake of your own health, and within the knowledge that there's nothing I can do, it isn't in my control and that's how it is right now. Thank you again and I will keep checking in, for some reason I didn't get the notification of your post but I will look at why that is!

Morning everyone. I've got my dear friend with me at the moment so haven't been on line for a few days.

A friend we were speaking to recently had been wondering if we may have been affected by PTSD due to our estrangement so Mr. S. went on line and found a 'test' and we gave it a go.

Obviously not a fail safe diagnosis by any means but interestingly we both scored on the spectrum. I was shocked TBH but when I thought about what we'd been through, especially in the first few years before we moved away as we literally lived just down the road from our ES, it made sense.

Estrangement is referred too as a living bereavement Nana and rightly so IMO. We go through the sequence of emotions associated with bereavement as we grieve for the son or daughter we have 'lost' and in many cases grand children too.

"How do we mourn for someone still living" is a line I remember from a poem written by an estranged mother, several years ago.

Just to let let you know Nana that you get notification if someone sends you a pm but not if you've been directly responded too on the forum.

It's good to know that you'll keep checking in.

Good Afternoon Nana49 and Smileless2012 hope you enjoyed the holiday weekend.
I would agree with you about the stress and sadness of estrangement and when I was having counselling sessions
about three years ago I brought up PTSD to my counsellor telling her that much of what I have gone through with my D
feels like PTSD.

Being on the subject of bereavement and like a bolt from the blue on Monday morning an ambulance arrived just over the road from me at a neighbours house. The ambulance was there for a while and then cars began to arrive (the family are
Muslims) and so sadly there was nothing could be done and the man (dad) of the family was dead.
I get on well with them after all they have lived near me for over 20 years and our children all played together as they were growing up.
I had planned to do so much for my garden over the weekend and had bought a huge amount of plants from the
shop on Saturday so I was in a gardening mood.
On Sunday afternoon I got all my tools and things to cut the front lawn and the youngest boy from the house ( he is about 31 now) came over and said hello and we happily had a
catch up about life as we do when we see each other and his mother was waving to me from the front of her house, everything was fine and his father was at work in the car repairs that he part owns. He went back over to his house and I finished my garden.
I am still upset and sad since learning of the news on Monday it was so unexpected.

I was surprised I even shed a few tears on Monday evening
as I like the family a lot although I think a few of those tears were given for what I am going through with my D right now. I have heard somewhere that tears help in the healing process so it can't be a bad thing.

Take care All.

I personally never went through the courts to see my gc the parents would not have abided by any decision of the court and my gc would suffer, I do not see it as my right but it is so sad that very important relationship is denied. When does estrangement become abondonment? PF if your daughter doesn't bother with you after you losing your dear husband and through a Pandemic, I'm afraid she never will. Its cruel.. It's a bitter pill to swallow this realisation that you are worthless to them the total indifference to your feelings and that it's all about them, I think it narcisstic behaviour, you can't alter it just how you respond. Thankfully you have two other caring daughters. Lots of people lose their only child and I really don't know how they get their self worth back. I have always felt this subject should be treated in the same way as other forms of abuse, tgatvstated what it is, but it's almost a taboo subject.

I would never go through the courts to see my grandson's. Would never even consider it. My son doesn't want me his choice. I will not put myself through anymore trauma . I know my grandson's are loved ,cherished and we'll cared for. As I have said before they are brilliant parents. But showed themselves to cruel and cowardly.

It's like when my mom's dementia robbed me of my mom. I grieved for her while she was alive. Estrangement to me is a living beveveament. Occasionally I have a wobble and a wave of loss hits me but it does over my husband's death as well. But I have a wonderful daughter, son in law and 2 grandson's so I count myself lucky.

There was a clip of a TV programme no idea what it was but the actress said she had good 2 children which was good out of 4 . Not exactly the words but the same meaning.

Told my friend last night to stop existing and live her life. She never had a family and divorced in the 90's. She is one of those people who makes excuses for not doing things. It's the wrong time, can't decided or in pain? Plus many other excuses.

All of us here could make excuses but we don't. Life has thrown some of us the double blow of our husbands dieing plus a child not wanting us. But with the help I have got here I know I am living my living not existing. My husband said live the best life you can and I do.

If life was easy it would be boring also it wouldn't make us the strong women all off you have shown yourselves to be. I know it doesn't seem like it at times. But if you look back on your lives and all the obstacles you have over come you will be amazed at what you have achieved. And should be very proud of yourselves. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I really believe that .

Smiles glad you have a good time with your friend. My brother and sister in law plus their dog are coming to stay for 2 nights next week. Haven't seen them since February last year. We talk and text everyday couple of days but it's not the same. Can't wait to hug them. They had their second jab Monday.

3nanny6 sorry to hear about your neighbour. As you got on well with them I can understand the tears.

Nana49 hope you are doing ok.

Sparking you are so right estrangement does seem to be a taboo subject. Until I found this thread didn't know it was called estrangement. I had someone I knew she died 2 weeks ago who hadn't seen her daughter in law or grandchildren for years but her son visited once a month. They where still married but the daughter in law wouldn't allow the children to visit her only phone call on birthday and Christmas. I heard other people say they didn't see their child or children and never understood how that could happen. I do now wish I had at the time perhaps it would have prepared me for what happened with my son. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Some people say if they had their life over again they would do things differently . But I believe we would be the same people and still live the life we have but that's only my opinion.

Used 4 bags of compost so far. My garden has become my happy place. I go into it and next thing I know 2 hours have gone by. Glad to say my veggies are growing and planted out beans and courgettes plus flowers outside. Got tomatoes, peppers , aubergines, sweet potatoes and herbs growing in the greenhouse. Hopefully they all product fruit.

Hopefully it won't be as hot today . Have a good day everyone ?

Good morning, old friends and new and I hope that you are enjoying sunshine where you are. I am on my way to London where some dear friends from university days are taking me out for lunch. It is wonderful that at least we can get out and see friends again and visit restaurants etc.

Sparkling - I am afraid that I am probably to blame for any rift. DD1 was really going overboard and I was overwhelmed with messages and photos and calls and, to be honest, it was all a bit too much. I still have anger about what went before and we were having a very positive conversation when I raked up the past.

The anger is part of my grief, I am sure, but I don’t want to be angry with her and DH wouldn’t want it. What’s done is done. DD2 also says that I shouldn’t raise the past as it’s DD1’s cross to bear and she will have to live with regrets for the rest of her life.

DD1 was going to call yesterday but I said I was busy and to catch up at the weekend. I will talk to my therapist about it tomorrow.

I still love her, I do want a relationship, and she has been trying very hard, but I don’t want to be hurt again. There has also been a history of asking for money. DD1 will inherit a little over 100k from DH, so hopefully they will be satisfied for a while, but I don’t want to become attached to the DGCs and then have to pay for the privilege of continuing the relationship.

Good Afternoon to All and hope the weather is not too warm for you, luckily it is lovely where I am but there is a good enough breeze so the heat is not too overpowering.

How good to see you posting P.F and you are sounding more positive I do hope you enjoy the meal up in London with your friends so good to start getting out and about.
Sorry to hear that the relationship with DD1 has been under strain, although when the ones we love hurt us badly there is always something causing doubt in our minds if they could abandon us like previously.
I can go along with what you say in your last line "to have to pay for the privilege of continuing the relationship"
I have spent so much money on the girls since they were born although in my Ds eyes it was never enough. When I
began to cut back on spending she had the cheek to ask me for the money I have saved for them which I told a small lie and said it was all spent as they have been continually having
gifts from me.

I can't give much concentration to D at the moment as I feel fragile in regard to the death in our little community and yesterday evening I had a chance to talk to the AD and AS of the man that died obviously they are heartbroken.
They are trying to get the funeral for this afternoon at 2p.m.
and my son is coming here at 1.45pm as he has said he will go to the mosque, the daughter asked me to come over to the house later for food.
When my other neighbours saw me going and speaking they too came over and said how sorry they were about the news.
One of my neighbours said to me that I am always the first to hold out the hands of hope to others little does she know
that inside much of my hope has been crushed.
I have one good thing to hold onto at the moment and that is the arrival of my GS which shall be in about 3 weeks so I am waiting for a healthy GS that will bring joy to my life.
Take care All.

So hopefully they will be satisfied for a while, but I dont want to become attached to the GC, then have to pay for the privilege of continuing the relationship.

I'm very thankful you've had the strength and clarity to at least contemplate what may happen.
And you've had the courage to write about it here.

Even with your experience, which is similar to my own, I'm going to write asking if my AC wants to meet up.
I realise (I think!) What a Pandoras box I am opening.
But somehow I have to keep the door open.
I wouldn't advise others to go this way, but.....

I personally doubt my AC will ever accept they handled things badly, therefore there will be no consequences for them 'to live with.'
I'm sure they are quite convinced the story they tell themselves is one they will believe for the rest of their lives.

Its us who put ourselves through the wringer looking back at the things we did wrong. Or the ways we should have behaved.
Its us who will for ever be changed by this experience.

"I am afraid that I am probably to blame for any rift" sorry PF but I totally disagree with you. You were not responsible for the estrangement, that was down to your D and your s.i.l. and from what you have told us, your D has not really, if at all, explained why she disappeared from your lives.

You say you "raked up the past" but surely it has to be addressed? Neither you nor she can pretend it never happened, and although we as all know only to well nothing is for certain, if your relationship with her and your GD's is to continue, you need reassurance that this will never happen again.

If you need too, as your DD2 put it "raise the past" then you must be able to do so. Part of the cross DD1 has to bear is her role in this and the responsibility she needs to accept for the pain and suffering she has caused.

You are angry, of course you are and I would think more importantly you are afraid. Afraid that she'll walk away again and this time, take your GC who you now know and love with her.

"What's done is done" is true and it cannot be undone and the heartbreak caused cannot be undone either. For me, this is what EAC who wish to reconnect with their parent(s) need to acknowledge and understand.

Before the decision to estrange is taken, they should consider that if sometime in the future they want to reconcile with their parent(s) they may not want too and if they do, it is unlikely and unrealistic to think that the relationship will ever be the same again.

We love our children unconditionally but as you have posted Namsnanny "it's us who will for ever be changed by this experience". Our love can be the glue that repairs the relationship, but the cracks will never go away and for me, although I do and will always love our ES, I honestly don't think I would ever feel safe if he were to be a part of my life again.

"I wouldn't advise others to go this way, but....." like all of us Namsnanny, we can only do what we feel is the right thing for ourselves and be thankful that we have one another here to comfort, help and support one another when we need it.

Not long to wait now 3nanny for that precious little bundle to make an appearance and bring some much deserved joy into your life.

Looks as if you're making good use of your compost Whiff; only 6 more bags to go. Making the most of what we do have is the best thing any of us can do. Our lives may not have turned out the way we thought they would, but they are here to be lived.

You're absolutely right Sparkling, estrangement remains a taboo subject and I often wonder if those who are not estranged, would rather not hear about it because if it can happen to us, it could happen to them.

None of us would have thought it possible would we.

Smiles as usual wise words. I know I will never contact my son no matter what happens to me. He decided he didn't want me in his and families life not me. I had no choice. If he wants to contact me he can but we will never be the same . That relationship he killed. I will always be his mom and will always love him but will never forgive or trust him again he killed that with his cruelty and cowardice.

There are always consequences to the choices we make aren't there Whiff, and there are consequences to those who are affected by the choices we make.

Like you, I will never initiate contact with our ES and although I did respond to his email last year after my mum died, my initial thought was not too but I didn't want to 'leave him hanging' the way he'd left us too.

but I didnt want to leave him hanging, the way he'd left us to

I think this sentence highlights the different thought processes between those who estrange and those who are estranged, Smileless

Yes, I think you're right Namsnanny.

Good morning and thank you everyone for your amazing support. I had a long conversation with DD1 on Saturday and I feel that it was positive and constructive, certainly the most open conversation we have had in a long, long time.

Now, I am going to be very lazy, and I hope that you will forgive me, but I am going to post a duplicate of what I have just posted on a thread which I started on Mumsnet some months ago. It is one of a number of threads going back over six years. I have had incredible support from my friends on MN as well as here. It has taken me ages to type it, so I hope you don't mind if I just replicate it. It is also quite long, so I quite understand if you don't want to read it! 'LB' refers to my son in law, who was named by a poster as Lobster Boy on the first thread, and the name has stuck.

I am also conscious that my last posts have all been about me, me, me, but I hope to move into a more supportive role shortly. I just felt that things had come to a head with my DD, that we were at breaking point, and it was 50/50 whether we estranged again. But I needed some answers, and now I finally feel that I have them. So, here we go....

'Thank you everyone, and I have indeed had 'amazing advice' on this thread.

I had a long talk to DD1 on Saturday. I had actually tried to avoid talking to her by sending a long, chatty message saying that was 'all my news for now and have a lovely weekend'. She had tried to call me twice earlier in the day when I was out, which is what prompted the message, but she tried again later, and I didn't want to give the impression that I was avoiding her.

We started off by chatting about normal things, how she is feeling (sick and tired), what they were doing (not much), and it was ok but a bit stilted. Then she moved, slightly awkwardly, onto the matter of the inheritance and when it would be paid. She said that they wanted a bigger house for when the new baby arrives and wanted to start looking now. I said that she should speak to my brother in law, who is dealing with it all and that I would her send his details, which I subsequently did. I said that it could take a while to go through probate, but that the house in London was sold, and he would know the present position. She wanted me to ask him, but I said that I wouldn't feel comfortable in doing so, but that I was sure that he would be happy to speak to her.

I then asked a few friendly questions about where they were planning to move to, putting their house on the market etc. She was quite vague, said that they were thinking of moving to Ireland or Wales and didn't want to sell their house until the baby is born (there is also the second house in the same area, which they rent out). So I concluded that there is no plan to move until next year, but that they want to know when the money is coming, which I don't actually think is unreasonable. I said that she could probably borrow against the inheritance, but her response 'What, you mean we would have to pay interest?'

Anyway, she seemed rather embarrassed at the thought of ringing her uncle, and I am not sure that she will. That part of the conversation reminded me of when she had met LB and they wanted to buy a house together. DH's father, ie her grandfather, had given DH £20k to share between the three DDs, for such things as driving lessons, first car etc. None of them were at all bothered about it, probably because they didn't need it at the time, but there was absolute trust that DH would keep it safe for them. But after she met LB, she kept ringing up, both me and DH, at least two or three conversations with each of us, asking where the money was, was it in an account, was interest being paid etc, as though she didn't trust us. It just wasn't her, and I knew then that she had been primed to ask these questions.

The conversation then took a different turn and we had the frankest conversation we have had in a long, long time. I think it was Billy who said that DD1 would process things over a period of time, and I think she was right.

First, DD1 told me how worried she is about giving birth again, after the two emergency C sections for DGD1 and DGD2. Some of you may remember from one of my other threads that she was strongly advised by her consultant to have an elective C section last time, but refused and went to something like 43 weeks before being induced. She then ended up with another emergency C section, during which both she and DGD2 nearly died - she told me recently that she believed DGD2 was dead - and she was treated for suspected sepsis. DD1 said she thought that she had PTSD as a result of the experience and it took her a while to bond with DGD2, who was born late on Christmas Eve.

I spoke to DD1 shortly after the birth, in the early hours of the morning, and she was shattered and had been advised to stay in hospital for a few days to recover and get some rest. I said that seemed like a good idea and she agreed. When I spoke to her, the thing she seemed most concerned about was that LB hadn't been allowed to stay overnight and had to drive home, when he was tired. She was concerned that he was driving whilst tired, hadn't had anything to eat etc. From what she said, it sounded as though LB had gone off in a sulk.

The next thing was, some hours later, LB sent me a text - which he almost never does - to tell me that he had picked up DD1 and DGD2 from hospital and taken them home. DD1 later told me that she had cooked the Christmas dinner but LB had 'helped' her, which she seemed grateful about.

But what she said to me in our conversation on Saturday is that she doesn't want LB to be at the next birth at all, because she feels that his presence arrested the labour, that she was more concerned about him than giving birth. She said that this is apparently normal, she even had some word or phrase to describe it, and asked me if I had felt like that. I said no, not at all, that I was worried about DH driving to the hospital as he is a rubbish driver, but he had supported me and our sole focus was on my giving birth.

Then we spoke about the family situation. She said that she had been very upset by what I had said about her treatment of me and DH, as well as my remarks about not having formed any bond with the DGDs; also that she hates the idea that her sisters may discuss her in a negative way as though she is a 'villain'. She then mumbled again something about she and LB wanting to spend DGD1's birthday together, as this is what they always do. She then said that I should never have thrown LB out of the house, which answered all of my questions which have been brewing and festering in my head for years.

Some of you may recall my first thread, where I was going to give DD1 a sum of money to help buy a house with LB, but changed my mind after he exhibited controlling behaviours and she was crying all the time. She has subsequently said that she was suffering from mental health issues at the time but I, not unnaturally, concluded that he was the cause of them. On the day in question, she had been sobbing in her room for a long time, I knocked on the door and entered, whereupon she rushed into the bathroom and locked herself in. I asked LB to leave in a nice way, even offered to drive him to the station, but he refused to go until he had spoken to her. Half an hour later she was still locked in the bathroom and wouldn't come out.

I felt intimidated even though he wasn't actually behaving in a threatening way, as he is much bigger than me and I knew that he had won boxing competitions. DH was at work. DD1's sisters had alerted me to DD1's sobbing, as they were so concerned about her. I am afraid to say that I lost my temper, handled it appallingly, said that he was controlling, that nobody liked him, that he wasn't good enough for my daughter, and that if he didn't leave, I would call the police. So he did finally go, giving me a look of pure hatred on the way out. DD1 then came out of the bathroom, in a terrible state, and then went after him. I was shaking like a leaf and thought that I had lost her forever.

The thing is that he actually came to our house the following new year, apparently prepared to put up with me in the hope of trying to prise money out of us, as he subsequently sent an email suggesting that we should 'make amends' by effectively giving them our retirement home. But of course he still hates me and, I suspect, always will, even though I have apologised several times, gone out of my way to be nice to him, made meals he likes, bought board games which I knew he enjoyed etc. This is why we were not informed of their marriage, let alone invited, or told about the birth of DGD1 until 14 months later (only after stumping up £10k towards the property which they bought to rent out). Initially, they moved house without informing us of their new address and only provided that after we agreed to pay rent for their house during DD1's PGCE course.

We probably sound a bit pathetic, but we were happy to support DD1 in doing her course, as we thought that it would be good for her self development and confidence, as well as giving her a qualification so that she could become financially independent. We did hesitate about the £10k, but that was asked for as a loan, and we just took a view about it, not expecting to receive it back.

The problem is, when I reflect upon things, I see that the relationship had become very 'transactional' since DD1 met LB. However, I do believe that DH's death has changed DD1's way of thinking. She clearly, genuinely, wants to be reconciled with her sisters, as well as me. And I could tell from the FaceTime calls which we had, almost overwhelming in number, that she was so happy to be back in touch with me. I told her that her sisters did not speak ill of her, that DD2 was actually very sympathetic towards her regarding the loss of their Dad, that they were genuinely pleased to hear about DGC3, that nobody thought ill of her, it was more a case of a silence which had grown. I said that I was sorry for having been angry with her, that my anger was a part of my grieving process, but that I was not angry any more, that life was too short, how much I loved her etc. And she said how much she loved me and she was very concerned that I should look after myself.

I said that when I made LB leave the house, I had handled it very badly, but I had been trying to protect her, that I had overreacted partly as it was 'deja vue'. in that she had previously been in a relationship which had she subsequently told me was abusive, and I felt terrible that I had not protected her. I said that I knew that LB would never forgive me and she did not disagree.

After that incident, now 6 years ago, my hope was that LB loved DD1 enough to not want her to be estranged from her family. He had actually said to me that the one who would be hurt the most would be DD1. In the end though, it seems that his pride is greater than his love. We didn't estrange after a row. I believe that it took a while for LB to talk DD1 into an estrangement. DH and I visited for a couple of days, stayed in an hotel, met DD1 off site, took her out for dinner, went to an art gallery. LB dropped her off at the restaurant but refused to meet us or join us, although he was invited. DD1 had done a beautiful drawing of my dog, whom I had recently lost, for my birthday, hugged us when we left and told us how much she loved us. When I turned to wave goodbye, she had a sad, wistful expression on her face, so I think that she had agreed with LB to cut us off. I often wondered if the picture was, in fact, a farewell gift.

Of course, she did not know at that stage, none of us did, that DH had a terminal illness. The reason that DD2 is so sorry for DD1 is that she has missed all of that time with DH which she could have had. And DD1 must know this, she tells me how much she loved him, how much she misses him, and I know that she means it. I also told her about the conversation with LB where he said that she would suffer the most and she said that she had. I genuinely don't believe that she will estrange again, which is all I need to know really.

I said that I wanted to build a good relationship with LB, as he is her DH, father of her DC, father of my DGC etc, but a lot of people don't like their in laws, that of course LB and I should be able to have a civil relationship for her sake, but I also did not mind meeting her away from the house. I said that LB should not instruct my relationship with my DD and my DGC. She did not disagree, but said that LB loved her very much.

However, I detected a shift in her attitude, maybe slight but definitely there, that she is thinking more independently now. And although the realisation may take a lot longer, at some stage she must surely reach the conclusion that LB has prevented her from spending the precious time which she could have had with her much loved father.

Sorry this is so long!'

Sorry 'deja vu'

Petitfromage I can imagine it took a long time to write this and hope your relationship does improve with your daughter. But protect yourself don't let her hurt you again . Money seems to drive both her a LB not earning but having it given to them. It may be an inheritance but probate takes time and . If they have 2 houses as it seems one they live in and one they rent out. Why don't they sell the rental . Hope I read that correctly. And use that money plus the sale of their house to buy a bigger house.

I am glad my children have never been after money. Because of was widowed at 45 the government gave me £2,000. To go towards funeral costs. But we had already dealt with that . So I gave them £1,000 each. They didn't want it but I insisted.

Both couples paid for their own weddings and stuck to their budgets. They have always know my financial situation as I told them . The money my husband left is long gone but I inherited half my mom's estate. I get my state pension in 3 years I have no private pension but have always been careful with money. Not being brought up with it. Have spent a lot getting the bungalow as I want it when I brought it. But only 2 windows to replace and it's all done.

Both couples have always worked since they were young. And before my son decided he didn't need a mother he used to tell me off spending money on presents for my grandson's when I visited.

Proud to say both couples brought their own homes. Living in rental and saving hard for them.

I just hope when she gets her inheritance she doesn't turn against you again.

I would rather have no contact with my son than go through all he put me through last year again.

Whiff - thanks for your comments. I agree that a second estrangement would be very hard to bear, especially if I had formed an attachment to the GDC.

On the other hand, if they are solely motivated by money/inheritance, which I tend to think DD is not, then they would be very foolish to estrange me

Petitfromage ; that is a long post but I read through it although towards near middle I admit I skimmed it a little. I really hope for you and also your other two daughters that there is sincerity behind your DD motives. I seem to be picking up
so much by reading through the lines and sorry to say that DD
sounds like she is a waiting/looking for her inheritance and she is probably being prompted to drive forward with that by LB as perhaps he is the one with the drive for money.

I think you and your DH have given money to your DD over the years and if I have read this correctly they have two houses one they live in and one they rent out. I would say the same as WHIFF and that would be to sell the rental put the house they live in on the market and then put all that money together to buy a bigger place.

I do not want to appear rude but something in one of your other posts made mention of inheritance and something made bells start ringing for me and I had the feeling that LB
would be rubbing his hands together thinking oh yes more money on the way. I have seen the way the mere mention of money in my own family when a dear one has departed and it shows the true character of people.
I do not mean my own children but one of my fathers brothers was a widower without children and many years ago he gave myself and my cousin his will and told us look after things when he died. I have never been ruled by money and so put the Will safely away.
To cut a long story short he became friendly with a woman (widow) and her family also became friendly to him I was still in regular contact and kept up visits to him not because of money because he was family.
Eventually he went into hospital and passed away and to the surprise of myself and cousin this widow had got him to change his Will three years before his death and it had been drawn up that everything (house money , lock stock and barrel) went to this scamming nasty horrible person. Myself and cousin said it would cost us too much to contest the Will
so that was that. I could go into more detail but it would take too long.

I would not wish more hurt on you once your DD gets her inheritance and both LB and herself decide they have now got what they want.
Just take care is all I can say.

Thank you so much for your post nanny and I am very sorry to hear about your own experience.

You know what they say "Where there is a will, there is a relation"! I am sure that LB will dance on my grave, so I am proposing to be buried at sea

When my husband died my mother in law made our children her heirs and her estate would be divided in half between them. It's wasn't until she died we found out her brother had got her to change her will. Her estate was divided between her brother and our children. If she had been buried I would have dug her up and dumped her at the tip.

My husband died in 2004 she didn't die until 2014 aged 91. She and my father in law where a nightmare not just to their own son but me and my family. After my husband died she said she didn't have a son or grandchildren. It wasn't grief she was just that evil. For all his parents put us through we never abandoned them. She got worse after my father in law died again we never abandoned her. I didn't give up on her after my husband's death as she was still my mother in law and our children's nan.

Our children don't know a lot of what we had to put up with. My father in law died when our daughter was 4 and son 8 months old. But they grew up knowing exactly what their grandmother was like.

My son knows what a bad mother ,mother in law and grandmother is . That's what shocked me so much when he decide he didn't want me in his or families life. Or any of our side of the family.

Got a lovely time ahead of me this week my brother, sister in law and dog are coming on Wednesday until Friday. Haven't seen them since February last year. The bungalow has changed a lot since they last saw it. Knowing me I will burst into tears when I see them. Already got a couple of DIY jobs for my brother. Just things I haven't got the tools or strength to do. Be nice to cook for more than just me.

Take care everyone.