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Estrangement

I'm not playing.

(130 Posts)
VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 10:57:42

I have been estranged several years from my mum now and recently my brother reached out again after 3 years with no contact. I am assuming they have finally been able to travel to visit and are putting pressure on him. Of course he said all the wrong things.

His position is that my estranging is worse than anything that led up to it. While he is of that mindset, things could never change. Also of note is the fact that, those things are what caused the estrangement, one could not happen without the other.

He mentions differing perceptions, that's a valid point. That doesn't however invalidate my hurt and upset and that I needed certain behaviours to stop. It doesn't actually mean that my perceptions are wrong. Just because they feel comfortable with how I was treated, doesn't mean I should.

He said the ball is in my court. This is not a game but let's pretend for a moment that it was, I'm not playing, I have left the court. The rules were unclear, it was 1 against 3 and they never equipped me with a racquet.

He says that I have used my children as weapons. Again, my children have witnessed things for themselves. They are involved and approving of my decision. Also, my children aren't weapons. They aren't pieces to be moved as part of a game. Why are they being referred to as such? My children and their emotional health is my responsibility. They aren't mediators, they don't belong in the middle. The way to have a good relationship with my children was to have a good relationship with me, both in front of my children and when they were not around.

He said they are always willing to fix this. That should have happened years ago when I explained how I felt and what was hurting me. I offered joint counselling, I explained why I couldn't carry on as things were politely and gently. I came to it from a place of love and wanting a good relationship.

He told me that while I remain cut off from family, I cannot grow emotionally. Oh no, the opposite is true. Completely. The evidence exists in every aspect of my life. My growth was stunted by people who treated me like I was worthless, an embarrassment, not good enough, too many children, don't own my house, didn't finish my education, the list goes on and on. Of course they have no way of knowing I did in fact finish my education since estrangement.

He said that I had surrounded myself with people willing to agree with me unconditionally. Again, not true. I do not exist in an echo chamber and if that is what I wanted, I would never be posting here, in a place where estrangement has many facets. I've never held myself up as perfect. I've struggled with my mental and physical health. I've needed support that hasn't always been easy to hear but that's possible to do when it comes from a kind place of understanding and care.

He said some really awful things to me when I first estranged and again he justified them all, I made him angry, he said things because he was angry and that was my fault so he has no need to apologise. I don't agree, we are all always responsible for our own behaviour. Just because anger exists doesn't mean it is OK to cut someone, physically or verbally.

He told me all about how I will eventually regret this. Why? Why on earth would I? If regret were to appear it would be there from the start. The only thing that comes and goes is guilt and hurt. Hurt that I couldn't have a family who loved me but cares deeply that it appears to others that they do. Guilt because of all the things I no longer do or will not do in future for aging family members because we do not have a relationship. Unchangeable, circumstantial emotions that sometimes have to be carried and sometimes get put down.

I still know what it would have taken for me to end estrangement. It's quite simple. Accountability, empathy for how I felt and change. Of course that's impossible because my mum is an abusive narcissist and follows the abuse patterns of a covert narcissist to the letter. Baring in mind, her narcissism is diagnosed in her absence by a therapist due to the symptoms I exhibited. The same way we know Chicken Pox by our bodies very specific immune response.

It is just too late for my brother too now though. I've grieved and moved on from the relationship the same way I would any ended relationship. I don't have feelings for him any more. I knew that the moment he sent me an email picking me apart and demeaning me on every level because I didn't cry, I just dealt with it as I would any stranger on the Internet telling me all the old tropes estranged children of abusive parents are far too used to hearing. Even if he said the right things now, there is no trust, it's gone. I'm just not playing.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 18:16:04

Smileless
Honestly, it was a lot harder when I wasn’t.

Smileless2012 Fri 01-Oct-21 18:19:38

I think it's admirable Sara the loss of our son would always have been painful but losing our only GC made it almost impossible to cope with.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 18:32:01

Sara I have been going through a period of illness recently which has left me quite vulnerable as it has been life altering. I'm having to retrace some of my steps because of that. I'm getting there again though smile

My children always have that option too one day without my interference but right now they don't want to for themselves. Before I really explained to my children that I wouldn't be having a relationship with her any more, I offered for mum to see them but she said no unless I came too. So it's been a no from both directions despite the blame now being placed on me.

dragonfly46 Fri 01-Oct-21 18:56:49

I feel incredibly sad hearing your story Violetsky but I admire your strength and hope you continue to draw on it despite your ill health.
You must do what is right for you and I wish you well.

Allsorts Fri 01-Oct-21 19:03:26

Violet, reading your post on the reason for your estrangement, quite upset me, your brother doesn’t not come over as abusive, your mother is hurting she has lost you and her grandchildren, it seems to come from a place of love for you and his mother and the wish to start again, he is trying to re engage with you. When you estranged, you as a mother took your children with you so obviously they just have your side of it, it doesn’t seem you let your family get to know them and yes it is about perceptions, are you right or your brother.? You have made up your mind that your family are these awful people, so there won’t be any reconciliation. I am in the same position with my daughter, she made up her mind to estrange and it truly broke my heart. The things she said, were awful, her view of me and the lies told I kept asking myself why, so it upset me because no doubt I have no chance of reconnecting. Your life at present us full with friends and children, that changes, children leave home and alter views, partners die, friends move on. You can’t imagine it now, but as mothers , we do the best they can for or children, but we make mistakes, how will you feel if it were you estranged from one of yours and the was no way of putting past hurts right. I can tell you it is a living bereavement., I am just going by what you wrote in above post, I know nothing else about you. If you were sexually abused, or beaten or a victim of verbal abuse, I am sure no one would expect you not to walk away and quite rightly, your brother would agree.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 19:21:35

Violetsky
I’m not being critical Violetsky, far from it, I can see how much you are hurting.
All I’m trying to say is, if things have reached this point, there really isn’t any going back, too many things will have been said, which can’t be taken back.
For everyone’s sake, walk away, and don’t engage in any more dialogue.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 19:24:02

Allsorts I understand you have strong feeling due to your own sad situation.

Physical, mental and sexual abuse unfortunately and all by different family members. All situations used to hurt me by my mother.

I could probably sit here for hours and tell you stories but how many would be enough? How much would I have to convince you of for you to agree that I have suffered abuse, mostly verbal from my own mother?

I understand you don't agree with what I'm saying in my OP?

That's OK, we can talk through them and my reasons for disliking them as I do, I'll pick one now, Which would be preferable?

"You are using your children as weapons" This is calling children things, whether anyone is right to estrange or not I don't think this is an acceptable phrase that anyone would react kindly to.

OR

"We miss you and the children/we miss the children so much, it's so painful that we can't see them and share their lives" This treats the children as people not things, not pieces in a game.

I have reasons for disliking how he handles talking to me and why the things he says actually push me further away rather than helping resolve the situation.

Would my way work better were I to have a terrible falling out with my AC? I don't know, I'm sorry, I hope so.

Allsorts Fri 01-Oct-21 19:54:56

I think Violet, you are twisting my words. I do not think children are things, they are children, with parents and family, it’s like saying we are all things,
It was your seventh paragraph in your post that explained a lot, a scenario played out in many homes.
I do think in your situation nothing has been resolved or can be, I just hope your family move on as you have. Just as I need to do because now I don’t know the loving d I knew once, it’s finally saying enough but due to love and misplaced loyalty I hung on. In away you have helped put my situation into perspective, so thank you.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 19:57:51

Allsorts I'm sorry but those are my brother and mother's words, not yours. I'm sorry if you have also used that expression and that's why it has upset you? It's just my take on it md I understand why many dislike it that's all.

I will go read my seventh paragraph and get back to you

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 20:06:43

The paragraph that begins "he told me that while I remain cut off from family I cannot grow emotionally"?

I'm not sure what you mean?

I have suffered verbal abuse, most of this was done where he did not see it and he doesn't believe those situations. His is experience is vastly different from mine, there is a large gap between us. However, what he has seen or witnessed he minimises, he has picked up a lot of her, I suppose, tamer behaviour. He uses guilt, manipulation and gaslighting to a degree. So he is not faultless here.

He also does not want a relationship with me unless I have one with my mother so... There isn't really anything that can be done to save that relationship because I'm not willing or even able to walk back into their lives without accountability, genuine apology and change.

Smileless2012 Fri 01-Oct-21 20:12:20

"For everyone's sake, walk away, and don't engage in any more dialogue" I agree Sara. Once the decision has been made then any future dialogue is useless.

When I received an email from our ES last year, just 2 days after my mother died I was horrified. I did respond, it was brief and as unemotional without being cold as I could make it, but TBH hearing from him was the last thing I wanted.

He did the same thing a couple of months ago when Mr. S.'s mum died; why? It's been almost 9 years for goodness sake so what's the point?

Allsortsflowers Our GC have been used as weapons, but that doesn't make them "things" or mean that that's how we view them.

Weapons inflict pain, that pain can be physical or emotional so for us, depriving us of our GC was to inflict emotional pain, so they were and are used as weapons. Emotional injury may not leave physical scars, but it does leave mental ones.

We all hang on for a while Allsorts even if we don't hang on by contacting them, we hang on to the hope that they'll come back to us but for many there comes a point when hanging on is no longer an option, letting go is when the healing begins.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 20:22:19

Regardless whether my view or another's view of that phrase is correct, (and I do know that I am not the only person who feels that way) it's simply not true. I have not in any way used my children to hurt anyone. As I've already said in previous comments.

Do some people do this? Well yes, some people view children as weapons to hurt others with. I'm just not one of those people.

The truth is that my children have decided for themselves and do not like their maternal grandparent for themselves. They do not "only know what I have told them".

This is obviously a problematic thing to explain to my mother or brother who insist their version is true and I have indeed turned my children against them but being the one who lives with 4 of my children and has a good relationship with my eldest AC I am in a position to know how they genuinely feel and their feelings have been carefully considered throughout.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 20:36:55

Violetsky
Let your brother say what he likes, you and your children know the truth, don’t let him wind you up.
I honestly feel you would have this wonderful feeling of freedom, if you just shut this whole thing down.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 20:39:21

Sara you are right I know..

I'm getting stronger again. I'm working on ways to shut them out/move on.

Allsorts Fri 01-Oct-21 20:39:48

Violet, the paragraph I referred to was the one that stated your problems at the time and feeling worthless.
If you don’t respond to your brother it will remain as it is, he can’t have a one sided conversation. I think perhaps it does niggle a bit with you as it seems to be going over in your mind, but I think that’s the same for most of us, the thing is you feel happier as you are, you have your life as it works for you and your family, you will probably find if you let this latest contact go, it’s not your mother doing it, it’s your brother, eventually all contact will cease and you can hopefully continue as you are.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 20:42:59

Allsorts I don't know how to describe it, it's like a fear response when they get through and I think that a lot of previous conditioning sometimes snaps into place.

I won't readmrespond again, I was silly to

Kali2 Fri 01-Oct-21 20:47:19

I find this all desperately sad, is all I can say.

One day your mum will be gone- and the question is, will you have any regrets? Same for your brother. The ball is in your court.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 20:51:06

Violet
I agree with Allsorts, don’t respond, rise above it.
I do know what it’s like to have your memories twisted and belittled, but it’s not worth trying to change things, it’s causing you too much stress, it’s a fight you can’t win, so walk away.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 20:52:43

Kali2
I think that’s harsh, we have no idea what Violet has been through.

JaneJudge Fri 01-Oct-21 20:55:09

Violet, I am estranged from my Father (and his family) the best thing I think someone else told me was to wait when receiving communication and then read and wait again. It sort of taught me not to react to what I'd been taught to do iykwim I waited weeks to be honest, by that time I;d gine back to forgetting about it all xx

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 21:03:42

JaneJudge that's brilliant advise. I will do that

Shelbel Fri 01-Oct-21 21:25:16

The feelings people have (anxiety, nightmares, panic attacks, trembling, tears - I could go on) when their abusers contact them after they have stopped contact are due to trauma.

My situation is very similar to OP and I've had therapy for awful nightmares and anxiety due to abuse by my family as a child and then into adulthood. I was diagnosed with cptsd, complex post traumatic stress disorder. It is differentiated from ptsd that a soldier can have in a war zone by the fact that it happened in childhood and continued over many years. I have to be no contact to protect myself. I still have the nightmares occasionally but they're down by about 80 per cent.

OP has every right to defend herself against abusers. It's normal to become upset or have strong feelings triggered by contact that you don't want. I find it very hard to understand when people take an attitude that someone should not be able to restrict or cut contact with them. To me that's a kind of bullying.

Kali2 Fri 01-Oct-21 21:30:15

Sara1954

Kali2
I think that’s harsh, we have no idea what Violet has been through.

It was NOT meant to be harsh, and not judgemental at all- but how I sincerely feel, that it is so sad anyone should feel that way, for whatever reasons.

Sara1954 Fri 01-Oct-21 22:01:31

Kali
Sorry I misinterpreted you.

VioletSky Fri 01-Oct-21 22:15:51

I mean figuratively the ball is in their court but they are ignoring the ball, it's not a ball they want to play with, they would rather use missiles... I don't know